[youtube=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lwfYGWW9Ng”]
Police violence in Armenia on March 1st, The Bloody Sunday, as a result of which the tent camp of sleeping protesters in Yerevan’s Liberty square was dispersed, their leader Levon Ter-Petrossian taken under house arrest, stirred emotions, resulted in large scale riots after a spontaneous gathering of opposition and anti-government demonstrators, triggering severe police and military action, deaths of civilians and institution of a state of emergency. Over a hundred people were wounded, among them more then 80 civilians. According to official data from Prosecutor’s Office 8 people died, names are known:
Zakar Hovhannisyan
Hamlet Tadevosyan
Gor Kloyan
David Petrosyan
Tigran Khachatryan
Grigor Gevorgyan
Hovhannes Hovhannisyan
Armen Farmanyan
Rest in Peace My Dear Armenian Brothers!
There are no doubts, that President Robert Kocharyan, Prime Minister Serzh Sargsyan, Opposition leader Levon Ter-Petrossian and his supporters are directly responsible for these deaths, and should publicly apologise for their uncompromising stance and stupidity.
It is also important, that the activities of the military and police are carefully investigated. The incompetent commanders of police and military forces, who, as a result of their inability to control the situation, have become the direct cause of civilian and police deaths, should be duly punished. Unfortunately, I don’t see it happening at this point. The authorities are playing the one sided blame game, taking advantage of total information blockade in the country, and directing their accusations solely against the opposition activists and media.
God forgive them, for blinded and corrupted they are with power!!!
now elections in Russia and violence in Moscow, a day after elections
see video at http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/03/03/von.russia.moscow.protests.ap
Well, i guess Russians learned a good lesson from Armenians and prevented the protests day one, before they would reach a critical point.
Blaming the victims, eh? The only one responsible for the deaths is the Kocharian-Sargsian duo.
Nazarian – what do you mean by victims?
Nazarian LTP is the ONLY responsible for the death of 8 innocent civilians. It’s as simple as: Whoever causes the chaos, cannot expect a controlled reaction” LTP’s thugs were shooting at unarmed policemen! Nazarian you are a Nazi thug!
I do agree with Nazarian. It was well prepared by that duo. And it was obvious that all that “chaos” was coordinated with special forces. Can anybody explain me why well armed forces which were standing infront of City for 40mins, watch the crowd standing in front of them, than after 10 mins left, allowing them to crush Lfik”s CITY store. Why they left? Another thing we took couple of people who were stealing things from shop. They have pretty good car, they look good, shaved, doesnt look that they spent all night on opera. And the last thing was what they took from store: several packs of potato chips and a huge teddy bear.
witnesses prove that LTP’s adherents were attacking
unarmed soldiers, other people say this was provocated violence,
and the fault heavily falls on some security guards and KGB workers.
I understand that the opposition didn’t want to tolerate falsified elections,
but there is another side which didn’t want to tolerate LTP’s return by any means
from IWPR…
Later in the day, another clash took place close to the French embassy and the office of Yerevan’s mayor. A foreigner living in Yerevan, who asked not to be named, told IWPR he observed the ensuing confrontation, and alleged that men armed with rifles deliberately fired on civilians.
“I was on a balcony overlooking the epicentre of the battle last night. I was within 10 metres of the entire fight,” he said.
“There were special-forces snipers with black ski-masks mixed in with the young, scared policemen, who were not masked. While the police shot tracers into the air, these riflemen directly aimed at and shot protesters. I saw two men fall on the ground below me, one with a massive haemorrhage to his head. He was unconscious and carried off by other protesters.”
At the start of the police action against the crowd assembled near the embassy building, he said, “I saw a police captain and his lieutenants drinking in celebration as they sent the first attack of terrified, ill-trained riot police to the front.”
As the police moved in, they set fire to a barricade that protesters had erected near the embassy. “Protesters lobbed fire back onto the streets and counter-charged. The police then panicked, and some were wounded in the melee, mostly from their own [colleagues] also trying to get away from the fight. I saw several police limp back, but none were bloody,” said the eyewitness, adding, “This is when I saw masked soldiers take aim and fire directly at the protesters.”
The eyewitness said the demonstrators had only makeshift weapons – rocks and metal bars. “A few had Molotov cocktails, but most simply took tear gas canisters and whatever police used to send fire into the protesters [and threw them] back,” he said.
IWPR’s journalists are usually those from A1 Plus, a pro-LTP media outlet. Here’s an example of when a state of emergency means that politically partisan journalists file anonymously and we can’t see that they are. The same goes for EurasiaNet who uses Armenia Now reporters, some of which are very close to the Ter-Petrossian camp.
Personally, I will only consider international news wires from named journalists on the grounds as well as the official press releases from international organizations such as UN, OSCE, EU, CE etc. As for who is to blame, please, everybody get real here. We’re all to blame and we were since the language of hate and confrontation was spread from September last year.
We all knew this was going to happen precisely because both sides were willing to fight, use weapons, and take their struggles for power to the ultimate confrontation.
Incidentally, OSCE says that it believes that BOTH sides had guns. That would obviously explain why nearly as many policemen had bullet wounds as protesters.
Normally,like Onnik, I don’t trust to sources like ‘my neighbour’ wife’ and ‘my uncle from Armenia’ but I wantto mention that on the night, one of my closest friends was among the protesters and when I rang him around midnight, he did say that both sides had gone nuts and were shooting at each other.
The violence was an inevitable result of the widespread sense of injustice felt by Armenians after so many years of plundering by the Kocharian-Serzh regime, then brought to a head by the election. People were angry and are angry at being ordered by their bosses to attend Serzh’s moronic speeches, having to watch the pro-Serzh propoganda on television, and having their economic future stolen by the corrupt ruling elites over the past 8 years. The pre-election abuses clearly showed Armenians what the future will be like under Serzh: “We will treat you like brainless sheep – obey us or lose your job, or worse.” Hayastan is a failed state, run by thugs and thieves, and the people are sick and tired of it. Business as usual is over, and the whole world is watching.
The violence was an inevitable result of the widespread sense of injustice felt by Armenians after so many years of plundering by LEVON TER-PETROSSIAN, the Kocharian-Serzh regime, AND OFFICIALS ASSOCIATED WITH BOTH REGIMES.
Just that Levon managed better to control the minds of his minority, get away with avoiding dealing with his time of tyranny and corruption in power and spread so many lies that the police, KGB and army were on his side that they were willing to engage in clashes.
Otherwise, it was a battle between one minority and another. The majority of Yerevan residents I speak to are distressed but hate both sides for the carnage which both sides are guilty of. Personally, however, i think Ter-Petrossian wanted this to happen.
In fact, he needed it.
Armenia was since 1995 when elections started to be falsified under Ter-Petrossian, media outlets and political parties closed, human rights abuses and corruption encouraged, and when the foundations for today’s state were laid down. Everyone is responsible for the situation — Levon Ter-Petrossian, Serge Sargsyan, Robert Kocharian, civil society, the so-called “independent media,” everyone.
As you say, it’s a failed state and everyone is to blame, but it took Ter-Petrossian’s language of hate to rip the country apart.
Everyone is. It’s the Armenian way.
In reality, we’re all to blame because now, instead of supporting one side or the other, we should instead tell both that we’re sick of this situation, none of them deserve to be in power, and stop this mess instantly.
Of course, it’s Armenia, society is polarized, civil society and media has taken sides, and we’ve got nothing other than more of the same threatening to happen instead because the most obvious aspect of this has not been addressed.
One former corrupt and tyrannical ruler, Levon Ter-Petrossian, wants to come to power by any means at his disposal. Another corrupt and tyrannical leader, Serge Sargsyan, seeks to come to power himself.
It’s probably why most Armenians seem fed up with both Ter-Petrossian and Sargsyan. Indeed, some are now blaming Ter-Petrossian more than Sargsyan for bringing Armenia to this situation in the first place.
Personally, I think both are to blame, but I do genuinely believe that all of Ter-Petrossian’s actions and speeches were geared up to prepare people for such a confrontation. Unfortunately for him, however, he lost.
The trouble is that he still plans more of the same, and the authorities are quite prepared to respond with force to any civil unrest on the streets as well. God help us all.
Actually, I’m wrong. Armenia is so far NOT a failed state…
A failed state is a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory. The level of control required to avoid being considered a failed state varies considerably amongst authorities. Furthermore, the declaration that a state has “failed” is generally controversial and, when made authoritatively, may carry significant geopolitical consequences.
A state could be said to “succeed” if it maintains a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force within its borders. When this is broken (e.g., through the dominant presence of warlords, militias, or terrorism), the very existence of the state becomes dubious, and the state becomes a failed state. The difficulty of determining whether a government maintains “a monopoly on the legitimate use of force” (which includes the problems of the definition of “legitimate”) means it is not clear precisely when a state can be said to have “failed.” This problem of legitimacy can be solved by understanding what Weber intended by it. Weber clearly explains that only the state has the means of production necessary for physical violence (politics as vocation). This means that the state does not require legitimacy for achieving monopoly on the means of violence (de facto) but will need one if it needs to use it (de jure).
The term is also used in the sense of a state that has been rendered ineffective (i.e., has nominal military/police control over its territory only in the sense of having no armed opposition groups directly challenging state authority; in short, the “no news is good news” approach) and is not able to enforce its laws uniformly because of high crime rates, extreme political corruption, an extensive informal market, impenetrable bureaucracy, judicial ineffectiveness, military interference in politics, cultural situations in which traditional leaders wield more power than the state over a certain area but do not compete with the state, or a number of other factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state
So, in order to come to power, Levon Ter-Petrossian tried to turn Armenia into a failed state by appealing for defections from the military, KGB, police, Yerkrapah etc, but actually failed himself.
Well, for now, actually. Let’s see if he succeeds again, but from where I’m sitting, the state looks totally in control of the police, NSS, and military. Perhaps the only thing they should do — and it is long overdue — is now disarm Yerkrapah although that will likely be bloody.
Facts based on people I talked to who were present at the area, pictures, videos and news coverage.
1. elections were falsified, It is impossible that Serj could collect over 50%.
2. police attacked the peaceful, demonstrators at night (AM 6:30) in front of opera. No warning was given. people were sleeping in tents, some with their families. Levon Ter-Petrossian and many other were arrested. Some people who were beaten heavily were taking to prison rather than hospital.
3. people gathered infront of French Embassy, they were angry, in panic and seeking protection.
4. many other people joined them to learn that what was happening. The number grew to thousands, all peaceful, many children and women present. It was a peaceful demonstration.
5. people are offered to go to marzahamergayin Hamalir (a ports comlex). they reject as they would be imprisoned in that building. Also don’t forget that the place is very close to LTP’s residence where he is under house arrest. if people went there they would be crashed under the excuse that they were going to free LTP.
5. A police car drives deep into the crowds, running over 2 people. The first provocation. Angry people burn the car. some very strange looking men attack the policemen, some angry people join them. It is clearly visible that these strange men are undercover agents.
6. People calms down and the peaceful protest continues.
7. LTP is trying negotiate with Serje and Kocharian. people are waiting for LTP’s arrival.
8. Oskanian holds a press conference, where he declares that all the papers for EoS are ready to be signed. please note that the protestors are peaceful and negotiations between LTP and Serj/robers are still ongoing.
7. around 9 PM Riot Police attacks the crowds, many are beaten and chased to Circus, at least 300m away.
8. people charge back police retreats. people start defending and building new barricades .
9. Some police are beaten by their commanders because they didn’t want to attack.
10. the negotiations between LTP and Serje and Kocharian duo completely fails. the due rejects any deal and are determined to crash the protesters.
10. new attacks, protesters being shot, a chaos but people still fighting and holding the barricade.
11. people chase police and there is some fight at Prospect, infront of the closed market. police cars are burned. no shops are damaged. most of the protesters go back to barricades.
12. EoS is declared.
12. groups of looters appear at prospect area, this is 500 meters away from the protest area. They have sacks in their hands, they start breaking in the shops and looting. they go and come back again to continue looting. There are state controlled TV crews which record the lootings.
13. All the hopes of stopping the situation fails, Serj and Roberts are determined to do anything to crash the protests. LTP learns about the killings, provocations and lootings asks people to go homes.
14. People obey and leave,
15. looting continues and new cars are being burned. please note that the protesters already left.
16. TV shows only scenes of lootings, some edited footage combining the French Embassy fights with opera police attack.
Onnik
you forget one thing. You forget that some of the people that you talk to get information only from the Sate controlled TV. It is totally biased.
As a journalist where you present at the scene of clashes?
if not than please don’t spread misinformation and your assumptions under the journalist name. At least I talked to people who were there during the whole period and they are still in shock. What they can say is that they havning seen such a thing in their lives.
I see some improvement you stopped counting the number of people but your British sarcasm is still there.
Thank you Onnik for a voice of reason which will rise above the he-said she-said and the cult-worship following of our various demagogues.
HaikN, Onnik has obviously talked to more than those from state-controlled TV. The point is that nearly all the journalism is sponsored/controlled…either by the state or by some “interest group.”
In the final analysis, we have to learn from this event, not demonize people we already hate in an effort to proved to the world who fired which shot.
Most people I have spoken to are not blined by hate to the point that they are unable to conduct sober analysis. It is a testimony to the resolve of the Armenian people. Now, faced with a challenge, there is alot of work to do to improve any aspect of our lives here, be it elections, governance, accountability, competant journalism, you name it.
Zoheri tiv@ voch pashtonakan tvyalnerov mot 140 e
Cavali e bolor@ eritasardner, ev xpvac hatuk spanelu hamar` glxic kam srtic…
XARABAXI SPECNAZI KOXMIC!!!!
ISK HIMA ISHXANUTYUNN ANUM E AMEN INCH ZOHERI DIAKNER@ PARTAKELU YEV HETAZUZMAN KAM PAXUSTI MEG HAJTARELU HAMAR!
akanatesneri vkajutyunner:
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=343099&apc_state=henfcrs343096
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=343080&apc_state=henfcrs343099
HaikN– one comment on your point 4, regarding many other people joining the demonstration in front of French embassy… again, like Onnik, hate to quote non-official sources of information, but have to… people joined non-willingly… the pro-LTP protesters stopped public transportation and pushed people out of the transportation into the crowd, into the front rows of fighting… my friend became a witness, who was himself pushed out of the mini-bus and he still can’t believe how he was able to run away from the crowd… so, I would not be surprised that many of the people who were killed and wounded, maybe just innocent people, who were on neither side of the protest. That’s a shame!
If LTP is sooooo much caring about the people, he should realize that it’s the time (if not too late) to put aside all other issues and concerns, even such fundamental issues as human rights, and sit next to the negotiation table. This is a critical time for our nation — our nation is under the danger, we are at the edge of killing each other and vanishing ourselves… this was the long-standing dream of our enemies… they couldn’t realize it, but looks like we can do it ourselves. That’s a shame!!! It’s an equal shame for the current government as well. To me, this is no longer fight for justice. At this point, this is a fight for peace, it’s a fight not to loose more innocent lives.
We are not enemies, we are one nation. Let’s be able to overcome the hatred that was accumulated in us because of our political official’s not very strategic political campaign and actions. Let’s get out of crisis peacefully, and than move towards issues such as justice, human rights, etc. PEACE and SoE free country is the focal point!
I fully agree with Daniel, we should stay united and be more tolerant, andcall for it both the government and the opposition
I can see some people are trying to turn this tragic events into Hayastanci-Karabakhci conflict and I’m deeply concerned wih the outcomes this sort of approach can have. Stop coming up with this ‘Xarabaxi Specnaz’ and ‘Xarabaxi OMON’ as if there are not enough criminal minded law enforcement officers in Armenia itself and as if being Kharabakhci means being life-devoted suppoter of Kocharyan-Sargsyan with murderous tendencies! This is ruining the unity of the nation, playing to the hand of the enemy, disgracing tee memory of the thousands of Armenians who died in our first victorious since the times we spoke Grabar ! I bet Azeris hearts are filled with joy thanks to your efforts.
Well, I wasn’t wrong. Today’s edition of Day.Az has a maasive article on Armenia-Karabakh ‘conflict of interests’,claiming, with obvious joy and not without grounds, that this is weakening our positions in the conflict. In another article Heydar Aliyev is quoted saying they’re ready for the military solution of the conflict. Bravo, little Yerevan-centred provincial thinkers, I have nothing to add to the enmies joyful comments.
More re: Karabagkh and Azerbaijan and the current situation on the border:
““The Azeri army is conducting staff and command exercise at the Nagorno Karabakh border, causing some tension at the frontline,” RA armed forces general staff chief, colonel general Seyran Ohanyan told a news conference in Yerevan.
“The Armenian army is in full control of the situation. We know that Azerbaijan is conducting an exercise and our units are on alert, securing our borders,” he said, adding that no incident has been fixed at the border recently.”
source
http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=25210
GAME, shall we write an official letter and endorse it as much as we can and send it to the government and LTP? and other major players, including international community? How can we get out of this crisis? I am really concerned. It looks like neither government nor LTP are not able to put aside their own interests…
Daniel, the major player at this very moment is the people, only a part of which understood unity is the most important thing. Ok, let’s try writing a letter, let’s draft the content, only this should be sth that will ease the tense situation. I am confused myslef, cause minutes ago I found out there was skirmish at the border of Karabakh and Azerbaijan, I don’t know, the situation will dictate itself, may be tomorrow we will take the guns and go to Karabakh to defend the borders. Aims and objectives are getting changed,
referring to interests I can say, each of the candidates thinks he is the one to represent the people’s interests. May be we can collect thoughts and appeals of each resident which could be turned into an official document and sent to the Government and LTP. Only this is going to take a while, and many other efforts, let’s try
I also want to state that I am strictly against the divisons like geghci-qaghaqaci, yerevanci-karabakhci, bakveci=shur tvac hye, this is in fact shameful, let’s stop it
people, brothers and sisters, just overcome the hatred, listen each other, well love each other, I am more than realistic, trust me
http://www.petitiononline.com/yerevan/petition.html
We, the undersigned citizens of Armenia not affiliated with any government bodies or with the marginal opposition groups, state the following:
The events of March 1, 2008 in Yerevan, Armenia are an attempt of a rebellion, which had nothing to do with peaceful opposition actions. Witnesses confirm that the police and the authorities in general refrained from resorting to force as long as possible. The state authorities patiently waited for 9 days for the unauthorized demonstration to end, but the marginalized part of the opposition led by Levon Ter-Petrosyan continued illegal activities with calls to overthrow government with revolutionary means. This was a Gandhi on surface, Bolshevist in essence “singing and dancing revolution” to quote Ter-Petrosyan himself. The actions of Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s supporters ended in deaths (both among the protesters and police forces), burning and looting — something unseen even during the protests of 1988, when hundreds of thousands of Armenians were taking part in the demonstrations for the freedom of Nagorno Karabakh.
We strongly believe that now Levon Ter-Petrosyan is a direct threat to the statehood of Armenia.
The feeling of revenge, personal business interests and affiliations are the motives behind Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s scandalous comeback. While we criticize our government for many weaknesses and faults we strongly believe that Levon Ter-Petrosyan is the last person in the world to be interested in strengthening democracy in Armenia. The reasons for us to think so are:
1. Ter-Petrosyan was the first leader of the Republic of Armenia to practice large scale electoral fraud (elections of 1996, Vazgen Manukian being the real winner).
2. Ter-Petrosyan was the first one to use army against the protesters (after falsifying the results of presidential elections in 1996).
3. Ter-Petrosyan was the first to suppress free speech, by closing newspapers (some of us remember quite well policemen throwing computers out of the office windows of the “Yerkir” daily).
4. Ter-Petrosyan was the first leader in the Republic of Armenia to shut down a political party and throw its members into jail (the infamous “Dro” case).
5. Ter-Petrosyan was the very person under whose wing the oligarchic families were born. Actually all the current Armenian oligarchs became rich during Ter-Petrosyan’s rule. Moreover, while his supporters criticize oligarchs, the major donor for the Ter-Petrosyan’s campaign is another oligarch.
6. Ter-Petrosyan was the person who brought to power current Armenian authorities — who are now being called criminals and bandits by the supporters of the ex-president.
7. Yet the most important… Ter-Petrosyan is the very person who killed Armenians’ belief in justice, law and freedom of speech.
With everything said above, we urge our compatriots to stay sober and do not fall for the disinformation and PR-campaign started by Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s supporters.
We call on the government of Armenia to conduct thorough investigation and bring to fair trial all instigators of disturbances and civil unrest. With enough evidence of complicity immunity should be lifted from Ter Petrosyan himself. In true democracy no one can be above the law.
A noble thought but a false one. Armenia has been fractured into 1) the corrupt ruling elite and 2) the common people who suffer their plundering. Eight years of greed and theft by the Kocharian-Serzh regime can’t be erased by petitions and pleas for peace. The mere thought of Armenia being represented by doofus Serzh and his stealing cronies has put the country on the edge. It’s a mistake to focus just on Bloody Sunday and the stolen election. The cancer of corruption has lasted too long. There’s a good reason that Hayastan will not accept rule by the mafia thugs who stole the election. People are sick, tired and angry that they must struggle so hard just to survive while Serzh and the greedy criminals rob the nation, build their mansions, play in their casinos, and destroy Armenia’s future. Why should Armenia submit to endless rule by greedy criminal scum?
GAME – I do agree with you. The petition that Tigran copied above, regardless of the facts, is smth that may create more tension. We need a letter that is as neutral as possible and targeted to peaceful solution of crisis and creates understanding about the serious threat of war on the border! I am willing to do whatever I can. Let’s talk and brainstorm our thoughts, put it on the paper, get as many endorsements as possible and send it to the Government and LTP.
FYI, I live in New York and can’t physically be in Armenia, but I have a network of friends both in US and Armenia who are well educated and I hope willing to focus on peaceful resolution of crisis rather than taking sides. Let me know what your thoughts are. I am willing to talk to you personally and come up with action plan.
I am encouraging everyone to join this effort, PLEASE, let’s be wise and not get into a civil war or into a war with enemies.
HaikN, nazarian and all other supporters of LTP – I am begging you, STOP creating more tension! I am begging same thing from hayrenaser and all other supporters of SS and RK. It’s not the time to fight for power, it’s the time to fight for peace.
Aliyev already announced “”We must be ready to the armed resolution of the conflict and we are ready for it””. Read at http://www.today.az/news/politics/43497.html
Let’s do our best to prevent the war! Let’s be united and fight for our nation and not against our nation! As GAME noted, WE, EACH OF US, are the major player in this situation. You have to realize that we are in a desperate situation!
‘”Azerbaijan tried to occupy Armenia’s position on the contact front line in Mardakert”
The due announcement was made by Armenia’s Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan at a press conference on Tuesday.
“Serious encroachment on Armenian armed forces by Azerbaijan was fixed in the north-west of Mardakert. These actions differ from the ordinary ceasefire violations, which we were used to in the sense of applied military technique and weapons” Oskanyan noted.
He said fire exchange is currently going on. According to the Minister, there are injured from the Armenian side, Azerbaijani side has reported casualties, however there has not been an official confirmation of the said information. ”
Source: http://www.today.az/news/society/43529.html
“After information about the third killed Azerbaijani army soldier was received, Day.Az reporter contacted spokesman for Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry Eldar Sabiroglu with a request to comment on the situation.
Sabiroglu announced that the fight is going on now but he has no information regarding the dead and injured.
He announced that Defense Ministry’s press service will further make a detailed report. ”
Source: http://www.today.az/news/society/43529.html
daniel I am the first who wants peace and stability in Armenia. Our enemies are waiting impatiently to eat us alive anyday. and there appears a person and creates so much division and hatred, divides the nation solelly for his own interests. We need stability in Armenia! LTP should understand that. Azerbaijan knows too well that LTP is the internal enemy it can use to occupy Karabagh again.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this was done by Kocharyan or SS to distract Armenians off the riots that happened. They are getting themselves into political suicide……. I see Kocharyan more like an Azeri then Armenian, he ant even speak Armenian correctly, what retard
Rub is correct. What better way to distract the Armenian people than trouble on the border. “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” And Armenia has been ruled by thieving scoundels for too long. They will do anything to keep their mafia pig mouths in the feeding bucket. Face it, Serzh and his clique are made up of some very stupid people. That further infuriates the Armenian people: the knowledge that a person of such limited intelligence is stealing the leadership of the nation. Let the border take care of itself, and stop crying wolf. The sheep are not going to run back to their pens like Serzh wants. It is not over.
Rub yev Kirovabadtsi
Step by step the terrorism organization of LTP will be dismantled. You see, this is poetic justice. LTP did it to Dashnaktsutyun in 94-95 even though it was UNJUSTIFIED.
Now it’s his turn and it’s justified. We will see the beautiful day when Levon himself will speak from a cage in the courtroom. Alongside other members of his mafia.They will take away everything from Grzo , that way Levon gets no funding. Then of course fill them in cages.
Kirovabadtsi and Rubo, I said it once I say it again. This is the END. The government should move slowly in discrediting LTP by any means possible to the extent that he has the same rating he had in 1997. And then at the right time he’ll be put in jail. I see it like cat (Serge) playing around with the mouse (Levonchka) before the mouse’s total demise.
Levon is very very scared these days. Funnily I don’t hear “Baykar Baykar minchev verch>>>” What’s the matter?
Rub and Kirvovakatsi, it’s NOT the time to criticize! Stop it, for God’s sake. It’s not a secret who was fighting for the country and who was ready to go for easy tradeoff negotiations. Issues of corruption, human rights violation, etc. should not be mixed with the issues of patriotism. There is time and space for everything. This is time to rebuild the peace within the country and on the borders. Stop destruction and think for the PEACE!
We are a small nation and don’t have the luxury of being divided, we simply can’t afford being divided. We need to stand united and to fight for our country, and than comes freedom and corruption!
Everyone, PLEASE STOP defending or criticizing LTP or SS or RK or any other political figure. It’s time to defend ourselves!!!
I strongly disagree with daniel. Murderers should not get away, again. Yes, we don’t have a luxury of being divided, but Armenia has been divided for years. Poor people was too afraid to speak up. Those who defend RK and SS worry mostly for their asses, not for the nation.
HAYRENASER:
QUNEM QU ABIZNIK ADSHANK PORNIK BOZI TXA BERAN@!!!!!!!!!!
KLIRS QU MORD BERAN@!!!!!!
yervand jan, banasdexdz tgha es, chases? lav el naxadasutyunner es stexdsoom, maladyetz inch asem.
Joghovoort uremn , mi 500 jam tevoghutyamb dsaynakrvads material ka oor Levon-e HSTAKOREN dav e nyutoom Hayastani Hanrapetootyan dem. Ayt nyutere analiz anele verch tserbakaleloo yen Levon Ter Petrosyan-in . Shat chi mnats mi 5-6 oric Levon-e patasxan e taloo ays ameni hamar.
Ayn ore vor Levon Ter Petrosyan-e berd-oom haytnvee aha ayd orn e Nor Hayasdan-i arajin or-e, mer azgi arshalouys-e.
PS. Pntroom en Khacho Sukyasian-in . Ov teghekutyun ooni ayt srikayi masin zangel vostikanootioon.
Yerjanik Abkarian, Alik Arzumanian, Hakob Hakobian, Malxasyan Miasnik arden dzerpakalvads en.
Gords-e shat lav a entanoom
PORNIK “HAYRENASER”
qo nman hayrenaerner@ mahapatzi en entarkvelu bolor ajn turk shneri het ov hraman tvec u katarec hay azgi cexaspanutyun marti1-i lujs 2-i gisher@.
skasac rob serj ic minchev anmichakan katarox specnaz@ xarabaxi u qo nman dashnak shner@!!!!!
Hayrenaser, you behave like you are the personal bitch of this bloody government. Let me guess, you or someone in your family are related to this gang and you are scared to death that you will loose your illegitimate source of income. You are miserable …
Anonymous said…
It’s a tough situation.
On the one hand, Serjik won by a large margin, so at the surface, there is nothing to protest.
At the same time, the media is almost entirely establishment controlled, and it used heavily by the current government throughout the period leading to the elections. So you are dealing with a public voted heavily biased in favor of the ruling regime.
There are a few things lacking in Armenia:
– balance. When Levon was President, allegedly he used similar tactics to influence the result of the elections. Being the first president, he had the enormous responsibility to plant the seed of democracy, but IMO he failed to do that,
– political IQ at the level of the masses. This is either a result of inexperience (read: time will help improve it), or a result of control (read: it will take a few generations of benevolent leadership to help plant the seed of democracy),
– inability to yield power,
– imitation. Robert is basically trying to play the Putin playbook, but if Putin is the NFL (National Football League), then Kocharyan is some junior varsity team trying to do television tricks at home, despite the usual, “don’t try this at home or else”. Robert has been nowhere nearly as successful in leading his country as Putin has been,
– lack of middle class. I think the essential sources of revenue in Armenia are tightly controlled by a small group of men, an Kocharyan is sitting on top. There is “us” and “them”, and unfortunately, from the point of view of the ruling “mafia”, “them” is the majority of population: poor, starved, and delusioned. Most of the smarter people have left Armenia, let’s face it. So the ruling elite is having an easy time manipulating the majority,
I agree, that Levon is not the answer. The answer is in planting the seed of democracy. And I doubt any of the people running in the election would be able to do that, if they won.
Daniel,
We ARE defending ourselves. What I and a few other people on this forum are trying to say again and again, we DON’T CARE about LTP, SS, RB – all we want is to defend our votes, and fight for the rule of law in our country. We are SO SICK of being slaves in our own country. Now, the LTP is a tool to unite the people as other politicians proved to be weak and not smart. At this moment, people are totally deprived of any information (I don’t consider government propaganda information), police is beating reporters and tries to inject fear in people (my friends from regions tell me the situation there is much worse than in Yerevan). This government has become too criminal, they even dared to start clashes with Azeries and risk our solgiers in Karabakh just to desperately try to divert people’s attention.
Unfortunately, it is too late for “peace talk” now – the government declared a war on its citisens and this is unacceptable. With each day they move closer and closer to repeat the sad story of Romania’s Chaushesku.
As for the so called “hayrenaserik” – I don’t even want to address his ridiculous statements. Because of slaves like him we lost our territories and our pride throughout our history. Baic meka haxtelu enq!
Ara hayrenaser, baic inch anasun lakot es du!
Ai anasun, et erku bozi tghen iranc shrjapati mi qani xaxpeqov hai azgi hern en anicum du kpel es Levoni 95 tvic. Haskacanq ara ai anasun. Et 95 tvin enqan xaxpa kar vor et qaqer@ kerav, nerarial Serjikin. Chases te et takanq@ en vaxt stex er vor chtoxar vor menq haiers Xarabax@ turkerin caxenq. Asum es miasnutiun. Haskacanq vor koch es anum LTP-in vor miasnutian gna. Baic miasnutiun@ nax erkkoxmani a linum u handartvelu hamar erku koxmern el piti irenc zusp pahen. Isk qez es qani orva ishxanutiun kochvacneri varqagic@ dur a galis? Chtvarkem te incher en anum, tex@ heriq chi ani. Heto el inch a nshanakum mianal irar? Ete indz asen te ari miaci muk hoviki, lfiki u nemacanmanneri het, es hamadzain chem! Ete asen ari miaci kam el banakci pashtonneri shurj, eli hamadzain chem! Karox a gites LTP arturik a qo hamar! Es chem uzum sksel anznakan qnnarkel robi u serjiki andznakan takanqain kerparner@, baic vonc karaq duq ardaracneq iranc es qani oreri arac@. Inch himar argumentner eq berum, inch eq eshi pes krknum hailuri ster@ te zinvac u tmramol mardik hardzakvel en anzen vostikanutian vra. Verevum dzeznic mi apush asum a 1000 hogi skzbnakan hancagorc ambox@ xech joxovrdin 30000-50000 hogi marshutkekic ichacrel a u zorov pahel hraparakum, erevi naev stipelov goral u krvel milicaqi u zinvorneri dem. Ara duq lriv apush eq te jamanakavor eq apushacel shat hailur naeluc? Xarabaxum krakocner@ mer koxmic a sksel, et voch te azerinern en asum ail bolor drsi axbiurner@, nerarial serji u robi papa putini rusastanic. Poxanak et mtaceq het eq gnacel 96 tiv. Xelqnerd havaqeq u boloris (ev levonakan, ev dashnak, ev vazgenakan, ev haiastanci, ev xarabaxci, ev spiurqahai) shahi hamar et kriminal airunarbu mardaspanneri dem paiqareq. Marda ira dzevov, marda ira uji chapov. Heriq a et anasunneric vaxenanq. Jamanakn a vor iranq meznic vaxenan u arden vaxum en vor nman cairahex baner en anum. U dranic heto el arden ov el ga khaskana vor mer joghovrdin el chi kara xexchacni voch himikva, voch 5 tari arachva voch el 96-i pes. Vortev menq joxovrdin chnshox ishxanutian mamaneri het irikun@ uxux eterov amusnakan partakanutiunneri mech kmtnenq!!!!!!!
Ara hayrenaserik, ed 500 jam@ KGB nstel meetingner@ dzaynagrel a, asum eti davanutyan paster en. Tenc @lni et 200,000 mard@ vor et meetingneri jamanak LTP-i asatsnerin 2 ropen mek ayo u Levon, Levon er gorum, uremn dranq sax davananq ein ha anum, ara? Esh-esh menak dus ta…
Well said HiRebel and Tiko.
By the way, it is likely that this blog is being watched. Nazarian’s blog is being blocked by some ISP’s in Armenia, hope this one doesn’t follow the suit:
http://hnazarian.blogspot.com/2008/03/xternet-isp-in-armenia-has-blocked-this.html
hmz jan, tox naen. Shat husov em vor robikn u serjikn el knaien u erevi iranc mamaneri hamar kuraxanan imanalov te et erku bozer@ inchkan paklonnikner unen. Hamaria mi amboxch azg uzum a erku parvabozi het qni, eti gites iranc hamar inch hadjoxutiun a!
Sparapeti cnnundn el shnorhavor. Apsos vor herosner@ spanvum en (Vazgen@, Monten, mius bolor@) isk taptpukenr@ mnum. Ekeq esor bolors “havaqvenq” u gnanq Vazgeni gerezman harganq talu. De tox seiran kochecial@ mer “aporini havaq@” cri. Esor lav kereva te ov ov a. Mnum a sranq Vazgeni axpor@ ira gerzmani mot dzerbakalen.
Txerq, vor es angam el kotrvenq e, vsio mer verj@ vorpes azg kga. Vor eli handurjenq sranc barbarosutjunner@ sranq kmtatsen, ara es joxovrdi glxin karanq popoq jardenq, sranq amen inch kul ktan, vor 2008-i Marti 1-@ kul tvin. Sax kanalner@ pakel, mnum a tne-tun @nknenq mardkanc norutjunner@ patmenq, dux tanq, minchev es 20 or@ ancni, isk ete eli erkaracnen artakarg drutjun@ es srikaner@, inch asem, eli pti durs ganq, eli pti zoh tanq u… Chaushesku! Astvats mez het.
Vazgeni gerezmanin chem gna, baic Monte-i cav@ tanem!
Asum en Chaushesku-n ardzakurdnerin mi erku angam ekel a Xarabax. Inqn el en vaxt kargin simpatichni u poxerov txa a exel. De mi erku hogi el dra hmaiqin chen dimacel u het@ oarkel en. Ardiunqum el erku gandon a cnvel voronq voroshel en irenc @ntaniqi tradician sharunakel u hetevel iranc hor chakatagrin. 15-20 oric kgram es patmutian verchaban@!
HiRebel jan, gitem vor Vazgen@ shat sxal baner el a arel, baic ira herosutiunner@ petq chi moranal. Sax mi koxm, menak en past@ vor inq@ mahapartneri gund havaqec, inqn el hetner@ gnac u et amenacanr orerin krvec arden heriq a. Monte-i u mnacaci cavn el es qo het tanem u bolor iskakan haier@ petq a mez mianan.
Serge Sargsyan-e Hayasdan-i ardaroren entrvads nor naxagah-n e ayd massin vstahoren hamadsayn mer bolor Hye yexbayrnern u kuyr-ere BATSAROOTYAMB mi qani 100 levonatsads zombineri voronc hamar bardootioon-e mi qich tang a nstel glooxnerin. Inch anenk gyank.
Ay Levon MARDASPAN:
Ba inch joghovoordin xapetseer te
1. Banak-i general-nere im het en mez en mianaloo
2. Divanagitakan gorpus-e mez a mianaloo
3. Vostikannere mez en mianaloo
4. 300,000 tzayn sdatsads Artur Baghdassarian-e mez a mianaloo
5, Sagh ashkharh-e mez a mianaloo
Ay stakhos lkti srika , ed yerkrort achkt el korana 8 hogoo baddjar dartsar ay mardaspan, nranc xabelov vor “haxteloo enk”
Isk ov kez miacav ? Divanaked-nerits mi 4-5 HHSh-i takank Shukaryan (Zukerman) yevayln.
aytselek http://www.levonforpresident.com entegh hratarkvum a nor tert. Samizdat. Vntsor Sovet lini. Es inch orn enk enkel joghovurd jan. Asum en zoheri tiv@ antsnum a 40-@
‘Azeri armed forces attempted to seize Armenian positions’
te tgherk jamanakna khelkners havakenk glkhneris oo mianank. Astvatz ani et Levon-n e shoot pasa-poosan havaki gna gortzi hetevits. Oorish karevor baner kan kan et himmari ambitsianer@.
yes arajarkoom en Levon-i oo ir gordsakitsner-in tanel Karabakh Martakert kam Aghdam arachi gtsee vra. Poxanak bantarkven vorpes irakan iskakan hayrenserner togh ertan hayreni hogh-e bashdbanen.
Hayastani Hanrapetutyan karavarootioon-e mets hasoonootyun dsudsaberelov ays hartse mi 15 orits k lutsee
Abril-i 7-in Serge-e Naxagah. Patrastvek ed geghecik orvan levonacads zombiner.
Haxteloo enk. Haxteloo e Hye joxovoord-e Joghovurd-e verchabes 20 tari verch azatveloo e HHShits. Astvads mer het
Rob and Serj murdered Armenians. Has that ever happened in 3000 years – a civil war? No matter what Levon said or did – no one kills his brother. NEVER. Write these Turks:
Dear Sirs,
I am writing to you regarding your government’s recent detention of peaceful protesters in Yerevan. They were peacefully promoting democracy when Armenian security and police forces opened fire on the protesters, killing at least 8 people. During this, several citizens were abducted, beaten and detained by police forces. They have been held since March 1st without being charged with any crime or given access to a judge or lawyer. Recently, reports have come to my attention that at least one is being threatened with a prison sentence of 10 years, without even having the benefit of a trial. Such actions are patently illegal and immoral. These detainees should be freed immediately.
I am calling on you to respect universal human rights. Regardless of anyone’s political beliefs, they do not deserve to be abducted, beaten and illegally arrested like these brave peaceful protesters the Armenian government is detaining. I urge your government to bring about the immediate and unconditional release of your fellow Armenians and all the political prisoners detained with them.
Sincerely,
—–
Email Addresses
to: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected], [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
Hayrenaserik@ klassik troll e. Dranq sovorabar shat thujl mardik en, kjanqum shat anhajogh (loser), xgh&i arzhani, snvum en iranc dem ughghvac’ hajhojanqnerov. Cavoq stri, prc’um chka.
Another letter is circulating with already thousands of signatures in the diaspora, it was written by an amazing, iskakan hayrenaser brother. It was already sent to the above addresses please distribute this to all your friends throughout Armenia and the world. We need grassroots support to oust Levon!
We, the undersigned citizens of Armenia not affiliated with any government bodies or with the marginal opposition groups, state the following:
The events of March 1, 2008 in Yerevan, Armenia are an attempt of a rebellion, which had nothing to do with peaceful opposition actions. Witnesses confirm that the police and the authorities in general refrained from resorting to force as long as possible. The state authorities patiently waited for 9 days for the unauthorized demonstration to end, but the marginalized part of the opposition led by Levon Ter-Petrosyan continued illegal activities with calls to overthrow government with revolutionary means. This was a Gandhi on surface, Bolshevist in essence “singing and dancing revolution” to quote Ter-Petrosyan himself. The actions of Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s supporters ended in deaths (both among the protesters and police forces), burning and looting — something unseen even during the protests of 1988, when hundreds of thousands of Armenians were taking part in the demonstrations for the freedom of Nagorno Karabakh.
We strongly believe that now Levon Ter-Petrosyan is a direct threat to the statehood of Armenia.
The feeling of revenge, personal business interests and affiliations are the motives behind Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s scandalous comeback. While we criticize our government for many weaknesses and faults we strongly believe that Levon Ter-Petrosyan is the last person in the world to be interested in strengthening democracy in Armenia. The reasons for us to think so are:
1. Ter-Petrosyan was the first leader of the Republic of Armenia to practice large scale electoral fraud (elections of 1996, Vazgen Manukian being the real winner).
2. Ter-Petrosyan was the first one to use army against the protesters (after falsifying the results of presidential elections in 1996).
3. Ter-Petrosyan was the first to suppress free speech, by closing newspapers (some of us remember quite well policemen throwing computers out of the office windows of the “Yerkir” daily).
4. Ter-Petrosyan was the first leader in the Republic of Armenia to shut down a political party and throw its members into jail (the infamous “Dro” case).
5. Ter-Petrosyan was the very person under whose wing the oligarchic families were born. Actually all the current Armenian oligarchs became rich during Ter-Petrosyan’s rule. Moreover, while his supporters criticize oligarchs, the major donor for the Ter-Petrosyan’s campaign is another oligarch.
6. Ter-Petrosyan was the person who brought to power current Armenian authorities — who are now being called criminals and bandits by the supporters of the ex-president.
7. Yet the most important… Ter-Petrosyan is the very person who killed Armenians’ belief in justice, law and freedom of speech.
With everything said above, we urge our compatriots to stay sober and do not fall for the disinformation and PR-campaign started by Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s supporters.
We call on the government of Armenia to conduct thorough investigation and bring to fair trial all instigators of disturbances and civil unrest. With enough evidence of complicity immunity should be lifted from Ter Petrosyan himself. In true democracy no one can be above the law.
Use free proxy servers to access the blocked (forbidden) websites.
search in google for free proxy servers. There are handreds of them to choose. If they block one try another.
Ai esher. HHSh-n mer errord hanrapetutian stexcman akunqnerum kangnac ujn er vortexic durs en ekel aisorva qaxaqakan ujeri mec mas@, bacarutiamb mi qani eli harganqi arjani ujeri. Ankax im u mnacaci karciqneric ev HHSh-n, ev Dashnakcutiun@, ev Hairikian-i AIM-@ mer azgain patmutian masn en u iranc mec luman unen. Ara ai hayrenaser tupoi giada, et aprili 7-@ et inch ton darav qo hamar. Gone amachi es qani or@ mi xosa. Levoni koxmnakicneric shater@ krvel en Xarabaxum u eli kkrven. Nuin@ karam asem Serji u Dashnakcutian koxmnakicneri masin, shater@ krvel en u eli kkrven. Qo himar kocheri kariq@ chka aistex u qez lselov chi vor mardik kgnan kam chen gna. Isk qo nman anasun@ mer azgi nkatmamb harganq chuni ete mtacum a vor, ete nuinisk havatan focusnik Azaryanin, haieric 5-ic mek@ zombi a. Zombin qo naxapapern ein vor qo nman vochxari en ashxarh berel. Ete kardac Levoni koxmnakiceri mtqer@ ktenas vor irencic shater@ shat harcerum Levoni het hamadzain chen u ete normal erkir liner shat harcerum iran kqnnadatein. Baic esor harc@ en a vor mer erkri zargacman hamar (voch te im kam miusi andznakan shahic elnelov kam el noric andznakan atelutiunic drdvac) es kargi ishxanutian verch@ petq a trvi. Dashnakcutiun@ @st iranc aselu 10 tari a porcum a nersic hamakarg@ poxel. Ardiunqner@ aknhait a u zgtum a zroi. Asum eq qaxaqakan paiqar tareq. Joxovrdi vra krakox mardaspani het inch qaxaqakan paiqari masin a xosq@. Hisheci Levoni xosq@: “Menq shaxmat enq xaxum iranq kick-boxing”. Es u shat-shater@ @ndunum en ev 90-akanneri bacasakan erevuitner@ (nuinisk shat bacasakan erevuitner@), ev lriv hamadzain em vor 96-in Vazgen Manukyan@ arachin pulov haxtel er baic tankerov chtoxin vor joxovrdi kamq@ artahaitvi (u qaq keran bolor chtoxoxner@). Es hamadzain em vor bolor erevuitner@ en vaxtvanic a sksel zarganal. Baic hima tesakan verlucutian jamanak chi. Heto patmabanner@ u qaxaqagetner@ kverlucen u amen inchi gnahatakan@ ktan. Esor es vichakic durs galu irakan u pragmatik qailer anelu jamanakn a. Es irakanutiunic elnelov nuinisk k@ndunei Serji haxtanak@ ete inq@ mian sahmanapakver sev PR-ov, varchakan lcakneri kirarmamb u @ntrakasharqov (voronq shat vat erevuitner en u hetagaum petq a paiqarel dranc dem). Baic erb texekatvakan terror en anum, ailakarcutiun@ amenadajan kerpov patjvum a u hancagorc xujan@ @ntrutiunneri or@ qsi tvac hardzakvum a joxovrdi vra, es et chem kara @ndunem. Dranov mer azgi dux@ kotrvum a, vor@ hxi a shat canr hetevanqnerov: ev tntesakan, ev razmakan. Noric ete pragmatik es naum, @ntrutiunnern el cuic tvecin vor voch Dashnakcutiun@ voch el Vazgen Manukyan@ esor chen kara regime-@ poxen. Qartuxaruhi arturiki u dholazgi artashiki masin husov em voch mi lurj mard chi xosa. U naev asem vor ov el hima haxti es mius @ntrutiunnerin zains talu em Raffi-in, halal a et mardun u ira kusakcutian bolor andamnerin. Iranq ham ishxanutiunneri het paiqarel en, ham chaper@ chen ancel u misht bolori nkatmamb korekt en exel, ham bolor tujvacneri u nexacvacneri koxqin en exel, ham amenavtangavor texerum porcel en ognel erku koxmerin el ham el depqeric heto objective gnahatakan en tvel u aicelel zoheri @ntaniqnerin. Apsos inq@ cher kara es angam teknacutiun dner.
Mi ban el em uzum asel 90-akanneri qnnadatoxnerin. Duq mi qich jamanaki zgacoxutiun@ korcrel eq. Hima 2008 tivn a, procesner@ zarganum en, iravichak@ poxvum a u menq hima aprum enq esor. Esorva masin xosaceq, esorva problemneri u dranc lucman masin xosaceq. Isk 90-akan tvakanneric voch te menak Levonn a ekel ailev bolors el aprel enq aid tverin u hima ekel hasel enq es orvan. Et nuinna vonc vor asenq 2003 tvi @ntrutian@ asein ekeq qocharyanin ch@ntrenq vortev het kgnanq 98 tvakan.
Es akexc asem vor inqs shat harcer unei Levonin der ancac amran@. baic erb skseci lsel te inch a xosum u hamemateci mius teknacuneri het im hamar shat harceri patasxanner gta. Bolorvon chem asum te bolor mtacox mardik petq a miangamic sksein Levoni hamar gjvel. Es el chgjveci, uxxaki shat harceri patasxanner staca u im karciqov koxmnoroshveci. Amboxchovin @ndunum em vor shat mardik chhamozvecin u urish karciq unecan. Da shat normal a. Baic toxeq debat lini, toxeq poxadarc viravoranqner chlinen, tox voch mi teknacu iran azgaprkchi tex chdni ail haskana vor inq@ miajn job interview a ancnum erkri tnorin pashtonum ashxatelu hamar u hamematabar normal @ntruitunnerov ov uzum a @ntrvi. ISK ES @NTRUTIUNNER@ NORMAL CHEIN. Ete sa qo hamar normal er uremn du inqd lurj problemner unes.
Shat greci, zahles gnac. Haskacox@ aranc aselu el haskanum a, anhaskacoxin el uzum es mi amis lekcia karda, mek a nuin eshn a mnalu.
The deadliest sin of LTP was bringing Kocharian as his prime minister.
I am just amazed how people continue supporting LTP or RK or SS. It all started from LTP. So what, he apologized? Is the apology a basis for forgiving LTP for all his sins? Come on, in English language its’ a common saying that you act, and than you apologize. He will continue acting and keep apologizing… neither LTP nor SS are not going to case much about people… so, what I am suggesting to do is to educate yourselves, make yourselves stronger and fight intelligently! But again we have a more important task right now in front of us — how to prevent further killings? how to protect our nation… the priorities have changed dramatically!
Hayrenaser,
What you say – it was a rebellion, etc. – is EXACTLY what the Turks said and say. That is a simple fact, work it anyway you think you’ll sound better.
Anyway, still with the he-said, she-said. There are no end of assholes in Armenia and Armenian history (and all other countries). But here and now, only two murdered (or Turked) their own people.
[…] a tireless blog from Armenia that has been gaining record visits and comments for, posts the names of all eight who were killed in the post-election clashes in Armenia. The blogger goes ahead to say that both the current administration and the opposition leader, […]
Daniel, you can find me at [email protected]
One thing is obvious: current government can’t control the situation. They are banning this and that, but hey this is a 21th century and the world is flat…
For how long they can keep troops in city? Is it possible to rule country with army deployed on the street forever? Is it possible to ban media forever? NO, NO and NO.
This is already not about LTP and RK/SS. This movement is about democracy and terror.
We are a wise nation and we will not tolerate dictators in our country!
Some of the participant here are either KGB agents or Robik’s son’s (like Hayrenaser, the president of Armenia). These are traitors.
Some pretend to be neutral, confirming that they are not different than JAILAMS (like Onnik Krikorian, Daniel or some others). This type of people either are not informed well enough, or just pretend to be neutral objective but stupid assholes. These guy even are not Armenian Citizens and they do not care what is going on in Armenia, they are just having fun in the forums by blogging.
The reality is that, the Armenian nation is being slathered psychologically by the REGIME. All the lies that we here todays on Public TV and from the mouth of high ranking officials, proves that they are out of touch and they even do not know what is going on in society. Another version is that, then know, and they do all this misinformation about riots, about possible war in Karabakh just to scare people and by all means defend their power.
Levon is not important anymore. This struggle is between Armenian nation and criminal regime.
I have friends in public offices (even up to deputy ministeres, and even 1-2 ministers of the governemnt, and many middle level department chiefs and etc). all these people in private conversations admit that this wrong way, and the authorities are doing some steps that may be uncontrollable after sometime.
The authorities provoking war (Aliev and Kocharian agreed on the border shootings, Aliev needs the same in October when in Azerbaijan elections will be held) and want to scare people.
Authorities sacreing and disinforming people.
This is will create hatred and one day in near future we will be witnesses of assassinations.
Hayk, man, really. You know the one MAIN crime that Ter-Petrossian and his supporters like you are guilty of to an such an extent when you all come across as paranoid and almost schizophrenic is when you start accusing people of treason and everything else.
Firstly, what gives you the right to decide who is a traitor or not, and secondly, how dare you start labeling people as such simply because they don’t agree with you. It’s this aspect that also proves that Ter-Petrossian and his team are the enemies of democracy and freedom of thought and speech.
All you do is spew hatred and division at every opportunity. All you can do is swear, curse and intimidate instead of engaging in discussion. All you can do is accuse and offend. Actually, your only tactic is to divide rather than unite. Probably you need to think in terms of black and white because “neutral” or people having their own opinions worries you. You need to push them to choose sides.
That’s all you know.
Incidentally, you say I’m not an Armenian citizen. It’s true, and I have no intention of being one. However, my son is and I therefore have as much a stake in the future of this country as most citizens because of him. Interestingly, however, whether I am or not, I’m the one that’s living here whereas you’re not. I wonder, why didn’t you come to fight for your great leader? I wonder? Will you?
Anyway, you know one thing that makes it hard to keep neutral — and I admit it — is the hate and tactics of Ter-Petrossian and his team. When LTP’s supporters harrass me via email or like you and others instead accuse me — and accuse me of what? Of being an “agent of several services,” “in the pay of Serge,” or “stupid assholes” I realize one thing.
That is, you guys are actually worse than what you seek to replace. You do yourself more harm than good because even if many people would like to fight against the regime, they see how you people operate and they understand that you are not an alternative. Two senior western journalists last night told me that LTP’s supporters remind them of a religious cult.
I realize another thing two. When you accuse people of being in the pay of Serge or being an agent of whoever, it also shows you guys can’t base anything on facts. All you can do is spread slander and rumors. You make up the reality as you see it to justify your failures and hope that a few people with no sense of logic or reason will fall for it.
BTW: Might interest you all to know that on Sunday when foreign journalists went to LTP’s house for a press conference on the bloody events the night before, guess what the first hour consisted of? Sorrow and grief for those that died? Remorse? Regret? Anger? What?
Well, nothing. For the first hour Ter-Petrossian spoke about himself and showed journalists his books and diplomas. Only when he had finished that did he speak about the poor sods that laid down their lives for a leader who had misled them into thinking the police, KGB and army were on their side.
And he couldn’t even put them above his own ego even for just one hour.
There are so many apparent things that nobady can disagree with that.
First of All I want to say that I am not fond of LTP, but it`s obvious that our president and other authorities are cowards .I am responsible for what I say. They have used weapons
against their nation and have no courage to declare about that.
They`ve killed so many people and have made no attempts for excuses. They even have not talk about the victims except one policeman. Nobody even put some flowers in that square.
Dear friend,there are many girls in this blog,so I ask you(Armenian guyes) not to use curse here.That is not the only way to prove you are right
no one writing here is indifferent or neutral, or sold, or KGB representative,
and traitors are those who spread curses all around,
and if Levon the setter of the regime is not the case, let’s choose another leader,
only some opposition representatives do not consider there is a huge portion, not tolerating LTP, and those condemning him, or recalling his sins, are attributed as traitors, esh, tufta lakot, sold assholes,
you call them turk-azeries, and they should kiss your forheads, shouldn’t they?
the case is that we, all of us mustn’t make the moment more critical, curses are not gonna help, this is not a way out, be man enough, ladies are also writing in this blog
re: cursing — what’s ironic is that people always criticize Americans for cursing. Honestly, I have not heard as much cursing in US for the last 8 years as much I read on these blogs…
re: being trader or KGB agents, or etc… First of all, LTP said: “whoever is not with us, is our enemy.” That shows his own intelligence level and his attempt to disseminate hatred in the society. Second of all, LTP and his supporters already created tension between Kharabghci and “qaxaqaci” ow whatever terms you call small proportion of the entire population who is supporting LTP… Now you are creating tension between “qaxaqaci” and outsiders? THAT’s a real shame! that also implies that you are forgetting why millions of people appeared outside and not inside of the country… many of those being victims of genocide and a lot of them being victims of LTP regime.
BTW, I am an Armenian Citizen, just FYI, but I left the country because I could not tolerate LTP years anymore!
Onnik,
assuming everything you say is 100% accurate about LTP supporters, you still claim ‘they are worse than they seek to replace’? I could give a shit about LTP, alot (most) were there because of the hate of living in a third world country when we could be a Lithuania-like nation. I can’t say it enough – the authorities murdered their citizens. Period. We all know damn well that 99% (if not likely all) had no weapons or intention of hurting anyone. YOUR hatred of Ltp is blinding you from seeing what is important. All Armenian politicians are egomaniacs. NONE have killed thier own citizens before.
you’re like someone who blames a rape victim for ‘being to pretty and asking for it.’
Actually, tm it is not as simple as this. There are legal, moral, and logical grounds aplenty that the blame for the deaths of the people from last weekend is plenty.
Kocharian, Levon, and many others are to blame. And for all of you who cannot grasp the fact that it is possible that there can be shared blame, I feel bad for you that you can only see the world in black and white, us and them, wither with us or against us.
There were decisions made by people in control (or leading) government trrops and those in control (or leading) a population who took to the streets because of a call-to-arms. To shirk responsibility (or not show up at all!!) at the moment of need is the biggest test of leadership. Decisions could have been made to minimize loss, and if we had to all collectively plan or advise over again, my guess is that many would demand better.
So why don’t we do that now? Instead of blaming each other, claiming that the enemy killed my brothers and sisters, go convince the people you believe in to make better future decisions, as there will be a tomorrow. Improve the processes you can influence. Swearing and finger-pointing has little effect here other than allowing the venting of frustrations. And everyone is frustrated.
Wel said tm, bravo!
I don’t know about the rest of you but as a proud diasporan this election has made me feel less connected to the Republic of Armenia–I hope that changes.
I did want to say that I really appreciate Onnik’s comments, which are carefully thought out and insightful. I am happy to know there are reporters of Armenian descent with his level of insight and patience to sift through the barrage of information.
Levon exploited despair of vulnerable among Armenian people. Started hatred amongst us. Promising them that he will improve things that only a superman could do! I understand the despair of some of the people which caused them to support Levon, I’ve witnessed it by living there for 6 continuous years, and I’ve shared and experienced some of the difficulties. But believing that Levon can make Armenia, Switzerland is naive. If he promises miracles, which seems he is, he is abusing your despair.
I would love to see Levon being an excellent politician, because he’s an Armenian politician, and is one of us, but unfortunately he is not a good politician, and he is making such a big mistakes that will have dire cost for all of us, and be almost certain that the vulnerable who Levon is abusing their support will be the first to be harmed. If you think economy will improve by pouring into the streets and smashing windows, blaming each other, hating each other, you are wrong. Economy improves in stability.
It’s really difficult to persuade someone who’s in a despair that things could not have been much better, if any better if Levon was elected. Don’t expect miracles. And if someone promises you a miracle thing again. In English they say “it’s too good to be true”. Levon@ hrashki khoska talis baits karogha ani? Hala vor et kan teknazoo-i mej amena vatna pahe iran oo boloris vat vijaki meja dre.
When I read Hayk’s comments I feel that I love that guy. Irakan tak-aryoon hayrenaser hay tgha es. Hpart enk keznov. And I wish Robert was a better politician (he is way better than Levon though) and he could persuade and win the heart and mind of Hayk (yev oorish hay srtants tgherkin).
Levon even can not find his way and fit into political arena calmly. Calmly getting what you want is a very “primitv” quality of a politician. There were other candidates. Compare them with how Levon acts. Is he wise enough? Was the very things he just did during the past two weeks wise? Did he get what he wanted? Or he failed?
And there are other political activities that are pro-Armenia and not necessarily pro-current-government, is it a necessity to be *the* president to do something for your country. Vonts vor asi “Yes yergirs indznits avel em siroom ooremn kam president em elnoom kam el oorish voching, petke president linem. Yete mek@ ir yerekhin iranits avel siri patahatz iran het k-kashi vor tan@ kriv chlini.
If he wants to prove he loves he country he must stop asking for demonstrations now. Stability is what we need.
Can someone set-up a website on which we can sign a petition and by each petition a mail getting sent to his website reminding him that “we ask him to quite asking for demonstrations” or any other personal message with a counter and list of people and messages? That would be a great thing so all could see there are people who ask him to quit.
People’s courageous standing up against corruption and fraud, anywhere in the world, in today’s anti-democratic corporate climate, is nothing short of a monumental historic act that deserves to be commended in the strongest terms. Anyone who criticizes and belittles their attempt to take charge of their destiny, anyone who refuses to recognize its historical and social importance, anyone who spits on the dignity of the people in that way is a callous ingrate with the conscience of a cockroach, the intelligence of a potato, and the pride of a willing slave.
Cut through all the inane garbage spouted by bacteria-infested kamodo dragon lips, and it’s clear that Ter Petrossian is not only not a corrupt, opportunistic puppet, he’s a statesman and inspiring leader of a caliber far beyond any in the region. That’s a fact that was rubbed into the faces of Ter Petrossian’s detractors for TEN DAYS IN A ROW. And now that he has been placed under house arrest, they crawl out of their spider holes and spread the ridiculous lie that it was all Ter Petrossian’s fault. Was the ’88 earthquake Ter Petrossian’s fault, too? Others try to spread the preposterous idea that, somehow, “we are ALL guilty.” Guilty of what? Demonstrating peacefully? Getting shot at? Demanding free and fair elections?
The Armenian people didn’t believe their lies before, and they are not going to believe their lies now. In twenty days they are going to come back with such an insurmountable force that neither Sarkissian’s legendary iron-clad stupidity, nor his yapping minions will able to stop them.
And let’s not forget that by their actions, the Armenian people rendered themselves and their neighbors yet another service: they showed that the OSCE is nothing but another tool in the hands of NATO, Inc., to legitimize governments that it likes and delegitimize those that it does not. NATO likes Kocharian and Sarkissian because corrupt stupid people are easy to control, and it doesn’t like Ter Petrossian because he will sell out the people and the future of their children the way Kocharian demonstrably has. If you doubt that about Kocharian, then ask yourself what kind of person sells of his own people’s water, electricity, and a host of their other national resources to foreign millionaires, and in exchange for loans that their kids will have to pay off.
Contrary to the idea that some oatmeal brains have sprouted, the Armenian people never have been ignorant nor apathetic throughout this whole Kocharian ordeal. Kocharian, Inc., however, has been every bit as ignorant, corrupt, and irresponsible as has been rumored. So much so, that it is a worrisome question today whether he or his mental midgets will try to reignite the Ardzakh war to gain political cover. Damn them to Hell if they do.
Armen from Philly – Your post is so full of hypocrisy that I do not know where to start. I’ll just quote you, and let anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Levon’s rule dismiss your ramblings:
“…anyone who spits on the dignity of the people in that way is a callous ingrate with the conscience of a cockroach, the intelligence of a potato, and the pride of a willing slave.”
I couldn’t better characterize Levon+Vano’s rule and attitude toward the Armenian people.
“…it’s clear that Ter Petrossian is not only not a corrupt, opportunistic puppet, he’s a statesman and inspiring leader of a caliber far beyond any in the region.”
I don’t have to add comments here – this is just funny.
“…what kind of person sells of his own people’s water, electricity, and a host of their other national resources to foreign millionaires…”
I don’t know Philly Phanatic, why don’t you explain Levon selling electricity to Turks while Armenians froze to death 15 years ago?
> … a callous ingrate with the conscience of a
> cockroach, the intelligence of a potato, and
> the pride of a willing slave.
> Cut through all the inane garbage spouted
> by bacteria-infested kamodo dragon lips,
If you had removed these sentences you would have been taken more seriously. That way your comment would have sounded mature.
> In twenty days they are going to come back with such
> an insurmountable force that neither Sarkissian’s
> legendary iron-clad stupidity, nor his yapping minions will able
> to stop them.
Pouring onto the streets and asking for re-election is non-sense it will only cause chaos and instability for the city (starting from the city to the country to the region).
> Ter Petrossian is not only not a corrupt, opportunistic puppet,
I don’t see anyone saying he is a ‘puppet’.
> he’s a statesman
I agree he is a good statesman (wish this skill of his would be used to unite us not divide us), he is an academic, somehow charismatic (to some) with his trademark cigarette-pipe, oh by the way his supporters can ask him to quite smoking, it’s not good for health 🙂 , and also “lav imij chi himava ashkharoom”. Yushenko’s Orange ties (and scarves) were quite classy though!
the more i read the more i realize that the tragedy on March 1st was just a fight between clans for the chair on the top but unfortunately people suffer while they fill up their pockets
Onnik, on choosing sides:
In a political process like elections, you have to choose sides, there is no being neutral. And being neutral does not mean having own opinion, your “neutral” means being observer rather than participant in elections.
Secondly, taking the side of LTP, does not mean worshipping or liking him. For many it means against RK and SS. Again, in elections you have to take sides.
Lastly, I don’t appreciate your remarks about the citizens of Armenia leaving outside. This makes you a hypocrite.
And by the way, those who complain about cursing: cursing is the mildest form of insult.
hmz it is not about the cursing as much as the screw-you-if-you-don’t-believe-what-i-believe attitude.
Apologists for Levon’s demagoguery in the name of “Serj and Rob are terrible rulers” don’t have much credibility. It is as if they finally found a target in the authorities that can be made to look bad enough to mask the anti-Armenian, anti-democratic and willful deceit of Levon.
How about a substantive argument, one that isn’t all rhetoric and ad hominem attacks and zero logic.
Why? For the same reason that I don’t feel compelled to explain why pink elephants like to do back-flips. They don’t exist. But I’m sure that won’t stop you bouncing the lie off the walls of the echo chamber when you and the rest of the basterma boys go play revolutionaries at ARF camp, even as a real revolution is brewing in the motherland.
To Onnik
You admit that you are not Armenian Citizen, and you talk on behalf of your son? When your son will grow up, he will speak on behalf of himself.
Personally, I think you do not have moral right to come here and criticize people. You can express your opinion about events, but you do not have any moral right to condemn people.
Whenever, I bring the argument that this struggle is between Armenian People and criminal regime, this NEUTRAL non-citizen JAILAMS bring the Levon’s factor, as if Levon did this Levon did that.
Forget Levon. This is not about LEVON. If Levon is assasinated in near future (I think highly probable), the nation will continue its struggle against the criminal Regime.
Onnik mentions that I am not in Armenia. I have wrote here that due to my job I am not in ARmenia temporarily. I will be in Armenia on March 11. Then what you are going to say?
Again those who do not represent Armenia as citizens they do not have moral right to critisze the people who stood up against REGIME.
You are all Armenians, you all have right to express your opinion about the events, but you do not have any moral and legal right to criticize the PEOPLE. It does not matter it is 80% of the people, or 20% of the people. You just are not in position to judge about them.
To me all objective neutral bloggers here (but in reality not NEUTRAL, because they keep critisizing Levon and Serge, no word about people), they are simple JAILAMS.
To my opinion those who support mass killings of protestors, they are TRAITORS. NO DOUBT about this. You can defend authorities, but not the KILLINGS.
Another observation, which is very clear indicator of the mood of the nation is the announcements of “Heritage” party. I will be very surprised if anybody here will consider Raffi Hovhannisyan, Anahit Bakhshyan, Zaruhi Postangyan as blind LEVON supporters, criminal protestors or criminal representatives of Levon Regime.
Read the announcement of Heritage party and you will see that who are the real NEUTRAL poeple. This guys are really neutral, but THEY SUPPORT PEOPLE.
It is true that they supported Levon, but they were not actively involved in the Rallies. The Heritage distanced them from Levon, but they see that what is going on and they express their opinion, which is the exact opinion of the people.
Go and talk to people of Armenia. I have done. I have talked to many public servants, as I said up to (deputy ministers), who undeniably think that this is not right way, to kill your own people, to supress them, and to limit the free media, to arrset all oppostion leaders.
These public servants hoped that they could change from inside the regime, but they confess that they cannot anymore.
Unfortunately, I cannot tel you names, but you can guess who are thiese public servants. Young professionals who were in the government posts within last 5-10 years.
All quotes from Onnik demonstrating “neutrality” on the present thread:
We all know that Kocharian and Sarkissian aren’t involved in bribery and corruption, right? It would be slander to say such things.
Perhaps Onnik will deign to tell us what credible and not contradicted source he got this information from. This information misleads people into believing there was some kind of power parity between unarmed protesters and armed to the teeth police. It is upside-down logic that implies killing protesters means preventing “chaos” from happening.
And it is that reliance on a wide variety of diverse official and unofficial, European and Asian, formal and informal, academic, journalistic, and lay sources that makes what you say so credible.
Like all journalists know, it’s much better to write about important decisions that your subject has made when you have no clue about his background.
And my personal favorite:
The funny thing about this statement is how Onnik feels compelled to tell us that the journalists are “western” journalists. One would think that in a world where it is common knowledge that “western journalist” means nothing more than cowed “stenographer of official sources,” (just like Onnik reminds us when he reveals his dependence on “official press releases” above), he would be much better off not mentioning their unimpressive cultural affiliation.
Ah, but stenographers sent to the frontiers of the Empire get to play intellectuals in front of the brown people, with a penetrating gaze that sees everything and misses nothing. And what does this penetrating gaze see when it is turned upon Ter Petrossian and his supporters? It sees cultists: They look at Ter Petrossian, and images of people like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Charles Manson spring to mind! With brains like these, who needs Da Vinci?
But witness the depth of their elitism here. In Onnik’s mind, their western-ness provides them with the credential that verifies the claim that Ter Petrossian is a cultist, but in reality, that preposterous claim makes it quite obvious that the journalists don’t know what they are talking about. Fortunately, as stenographers, their patently absurd assessments stay within the xenophobic confines of private conversations held at the back of the bar, as they observe the darkies and Onnik, now the anthropologist, explains the “Armenian character.”
So it is that you’re much too civilized a person to understand why a brutalized people would do the unthinkable and resort to profanity to express their anger, Onnik. You’re much to refined to understand why the cab driver would try to squeeze a few more pennies out of his fare, why the store clerk would rebuff a westerner who takes the clerk’s position as servant for granted, why the garbage truck that doubles as a furniture delivery truck, or any other type of truck it needs to be, regularly fails to pick up the garbage at 10 AM Tuesday mornings.
You really don’t like Armenia and Armenians very much. Everything they do that is not done the way you think it should be done is another sign of their backwardness, and it torments you on a post by post basis. The… horror!
So here is a suggestion: Go back to what you are familiar with and what you feel comfortable with. No hard feelings. That way you’ll be free of Armenians, and Armenians will be free of you. If you choose to stay, however, I suggest you rethink your relationship with them. Restore to the people the dignity that belongs to them; consider whether your convictions aren’t the result of your subjective history and not objective, natural facts; and try to remove that distinctly orientalist strain that runs through your writings that you have inherited from the British Imperialism. It’s called empathy.
Otherwise, you are going to continue to feel tormented. Mind you, nobody’s going to do anything to you; you are going to do it to yourself, like you have been. Armenians don’t have to fit your standard of “normal” to feel like they are “normal.” They are going to keep being themselves. And if one day they decide to have a revolution, then a revolution they will have. And there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it.
Armen – What is your point? Actually, what I wrote is not an ad hominem attack. It is actually quite logical. You attempt to argue that RK/SS are corrupt. Fine. You attempt to support your argument by promoting LTP as some kind of angel. This argument is pure hypocrisy. You are pointing to medicine worse that the disease and hoping for people to buy the argument. Devoid-of-logic-Haik and others claim this is not about Levon, but in fact it is, at least in part. He has led a SEGMENT of the disenchanted down a road of ruin, knowingly, willfully, and as part of his plan.
“The people” have not rallied around Levon. True, some (I would argue misguided, but that is not my point) have, but who is LTP to speak on behalf of the nation? He has not earned that regal title. This is not a “criminal regime vs the people” situation. Of course, it may become this, but mischaracterization based on lies and hate leads to polarization, blame game, and a lack of discourse among people who would like to see a better Armenia, Let me try and simplify it for you: Blaming Levon in significant part for bringing Armenia to this stage is not equivalent to exonerating the current authorities for their mistakes.
If you feel that the authorities are illegitimate, come to Armenia and participate in state-building. It is easy to wax poetic from Filly when there is a country here with a process (flawed, of course, but a process nevertheless) to improve the situation. And even though I imagine we would differ greatly on our opinion of how to get to a more prosperous and democratic state, I would be happy to see you here.
There is no polarization between people. There is polarization between REGIME and people.
Some try to be smart and find arguments, by criticizing both sides of this conflict.
This is not the way you should argue.
I will bring you very interesting observation that an old uneducated man told me yesterday. He says “It is very interesting that some people remember how they were fucked 10-12 years ago, but they do not want the recognize the fact that they are being fucked right now every second”.
So what is the conclusion. Those who remember 10-12 years old fuck, will remember today’s fuck after 10-12 years. So, guys this is a sign of retardness.
Now I think you will not be perfectionists, and will try to open your eyes. Armenian Nation is angry, and they do not tolerate this regime. This Regime is even able to orchestrate a war on the border to shift the attention of the people. This is the end.
If after all this you are going to be JAILAMS, or you are going to support this REGIME, there is no much to say you.
Some guys even try to represent themself the pioneers of the democracy, and do not like the way Armenians live. I read the Armen’s argument, and I totally agree that some people who saw the Western lif, they think the same is true for Armenia, and exactly the same should be in Armenia, so we could declare that we have democracy. At least we have to try to advance a little, before reaching to some point.
One guy here, the Onnik, told that he is going o belive only to international sources of information, but actually he follows the state information source and brings arguments based on the state information source.
If you are not going to believe in Armenian sources (whether Hailur, A1plus, Liberty Radio, or I think your favourite Armenia TV, AND YOUR OWN PEOPLE), I am wondering how you are going to believe to western sources. WESTERN journalism is the dream of ONNIK. Hey guy, I am straight, if you are not going to believe people around you you would better live Armenia, and do not live around Armenians. You are ven not a JAILAM as I thought, you are just blinded and selfish person, who does not want to believe to his own nation, and he is ready to believe in Western Journaist who are DESIGNED exactly for the people like you.
JUst some JAILAMS try to be smarter than they are, and the hypocracy prevails them.
To AH
You also read this posting, and try to understand what Armen tried to say. You also have to think twice before saying something, because whatever you are saying either is not factually proved or is very subjective.
My main points
1. This is not about the Levon. This is about the people and the REGIME.
2. There is no polarization in people. Even those who did not vote for Levon, now understand that this REGIME will do anything to keep their power.
3. I consider the “heritage” party NEUTRAL, and if you read their statements you will understand that what the people are thinking (both LEVON supporters, and NOT_SUPPORTERS).
4. Yesterday the REGIME even went after the Ombudsmen, who was Kocharian’s guy. First, I thought the Ombudsmen’s statement was an orchestrated and planned ste from the authorities, but later Kocharian really showed that it is not. Even the appointed ombudsmen could not tolerate all this LIE of state propacanda and could find a guts to raise his voice.
It is very hard to persuade some Blinded JAILAMS, who want to be fucked everyday rather than forget the 10-12 year fuck.
What I will say you. It is better go fuck yourself so, the REGIME will think that you are in their camp.
The world fuck, here has another meaning.
Hayk, it’s rather immature to call people jailams and hypocrites just because they do not share your pink enthusiasm about the levon-led revolution. Grow up, dude, and stop projecting everything onto black and white.
As for your point that “this is not about levon”: Actually, if levon were to hire a PR firm for his cause, they couldn’t come up with a better slogan. In my opinion, it’s all about levon! Maybe not for you, but certainly for him and his team pulling the strings behind the scenes. Sure, there are a large number of people who rally against the government rather than for levon, and sometimes even despite their dislike of him. But it does not change the fact that at the end of the day, if the revolution were to succeed (or maybe still is?), he and his cronies were going to be the biggest beneficiaries of it all. Or you think that grzo was financing the campaign out of his new-found love for justice and democracy?
Which brings up the question: what makes you think that the guys who fucked you 10-12 years ago, are not going to fuck you all over again?
Nice comment Aram …………… hayk = Stalin
“what makes you think that the guys who fucked you 10-12 years ago are not going to fuck you all over again?”
I guess that’s just a chance Armenia will have to take. It’s sick of having itself sold out to the (not even) highest bidder who then turns around and passes the proceedes to their friends and family. When you think about the average Armenia, and then look at Dodi Gago’s palace for example, and realize how it all came to him out of thin air off the backs of the Armenian people it should make one sick. Now of course Levon is doing this for his own self-indulgence as well, but will he really be as bad, after having been at the helm of a “people’s movement” for “democracy”? I am not saying he will be a great democrat, or that his but we have seen what the people can do and I highly doubt they will let him get away with what he did in 96. He should know what was seen on the street was not just in his name and the movement is beyond just one about him. I really doubt the Armenian people want to bring him into power to be f-cked by him instead of the Karabakhtsis and I am really hoping this is a sign that the populace reached the breaking point with those who take advantage of them and won’t stand for it, no matter who it is taking advantage.
I wish we had a better leader than Levon, I really do.. but does the fact that we have no one besides him either 1. is capable of challenging Serge / 2. is willing to challenge Serge. Does the fact that Levon is far from the perfect candidate and he’s doing it mainly for himself mean we let the authorities get a free pass and continue on with their business of raping the country? I guess this is taking a chance, which devil do you think is worse… but something has to change and I think at least changing up whose in power after 10 years will clamp down on their ability to completely consolidate power and take even more advantage of the place.
Thank god most Armenians are not as naive as this.
Paul states: “Now of course Levon is doing this for his own self-indulgence as well, but will he really be as bad, after having been at the helm of a “people’s movement” for “democracy”?”
Paul, I think chances we take should be justified and mitigated. And I don’t see a reason to risk the stability in the country for marginal changes levon can bring (in the best case). I don’t see him and his HHSh-akan bozos seriously fighting corruption, as they were corrupt as hell themselves. I also don’t see them ending the economical injustices in the country: After all, he wouldn’t be trying to convince dodi gago to switch to his camp if he was serious about bringing him to justice.
This said, I believe there can be some important benefits from the movement he started. Exercising democracy should be a consistent and continuos process, not just angry demonstrations in the opera square once every four years. And if he’s really the leader he claims to be, let him stick around, and let him, together with the opposition, find lawful ways of channeling the sentiment of the masses into a political capital. Then I’ll be the first to thank him.
AH, I assume you don’t understand the meaning of “people’s movement” and “democracy”. Being in quotes means I was being sarcastic and meant that he is NOT a leader for democracy. I forgot that not everybody’s first language here is English and might not recognize those conventions we use for internet sarcasm.
I am just trying to find the benefit from the horror that was sparked. I can’t hope that things will go back to the way they were, or worse, because of it. Something better must be created, or else I despair for Armenia. Thank you Aram for having given some examples of what that could be. I agree, LTP should stick around to show he’s in it for positive change in the long term. He can’t just swoop down from nowhere and take the presidency for himself in the way he likes to declare he has.
My apologies. I misunderstood. Incidentally, there are surprisingly many who actually believe that LTP is sincerely leading a democratic movement and/or that what he is professing actually has anything to do with elections/justice/etc.
You will see that things are changed. You will see it in short-run (2-4 month) and long-run (2-3 years).
You just do not comprehend Armenians, and the last 10 years of Armenian Realities.
I see clear uniformed people who judge based on 2-3 facts. For example, Who is good? Levon or Serge? Who did the worse, Serge or LEvon?
I clearly see that few people here comprehend the pressure the nation had on it. This pressure in real life, in economic life, in social life cannot continue. It will burst soon.
I see pattern that people deliberately or unconsciously bring the choice of the political leader as the single issue. This is not the single issue. The issue that people have, and the country has is much broader, and some people like JAILAMS and foreign-Armenians who do not live with Armenian life, who do not feel the pressure on the Armenian nation, cannot understand this.
Many times I brought the “Heritage” party’s factor. It seems nobody wants to discuss the position of this political party. There two reasons people do not discuss. 1. They do not know and do not understand the role of “Heritage” party. 2. Some bloggers deliberately avoid the “Heritage” party factor because they cannot bring any negative factor against this political party.
You will see that people will find solution
Hayk Says should be president …hayk hayk hayk
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