The issue of Manvel Grigoryan will be solved by president

34 Comments

1. Manvel Grigoryan is by far the biggest criminal on the loose in Armenia, his reckless behavior towards any law in Armenia is infamous and his privatization of Echmiatisin for himself is a disgrace to the holy city of Echmiatsin. The likes of him should be dealt with the highest form of punishment despite the fact that he is a war participant and a general.

2. Manvel Grigoryan and Seyran Saroyan are the worst things that could happen to the holy city of Etchmiadsin. Two animals (the second one actually looks like half ape, half human creature.

3. […] The Armenian Observer reports that controversial Yerkrapah leader and Deputy Minister of Defense Manvel Grigorian is on holiday until 1 April. Sources allege that Grigorian was set to support former president Levon Ter-Petrossian during the election and post-election period until he was forced to remain neutral. During the protest actions started after the elections held on February 19, 2008, there were many contradictory rumors, as well as statements made by the presidential candidate Levon Ter-Petrossian, according to which deputy minister of defense Manvel Grigoryan supports the RA first president Levon Ter-Petrossian. […]

4. The whole Erkrapah should be shut down immidiately. Armed civilians with war expeience should not be allowed to unite into political unions, Manvel ,Seyran, as well as already arrested Myasnik Malkhasyan, Gagik Jhangiryan – all should be put into prison for terrorising the country.

5. So we only have three readers who think that war heroes that terrorize people should be put in jail/executed?

6. Nazarian,
   The whole city of Etchmiadsin thinks so. And your Levon baba made his supporters shout criminal Manvel’s name only because he decided to support him. A bad omen on what would Armenia under Levon would look like.
   The biggest slap in Levon’s face by the way is the decision to hold Serge’s inauguration at Liberty Square itself , for the first time in Armenia’s history.
   Is Levonik invited?

7. Hayrenaser, one thing is obvious. They dont care about city of Etchmiadzin. If so they will take care of Manvel earlier. Dont you think so? This is political decision.
   Regarding inauguration at Liberty Square , it is weird. They are afraid so much, so they decided to have a legal excuse to keep army on Liberty Square.
   Btw, are you invited? 🙂

8. And also think of this. Who’s going to privitize Etchmiadzin next?:) It cant be left unprivitized:)

9. at any rate – one criminal less is always a good thing. the problem is new ones are taking their place at a phenomenal speed.

10. Exactly. There seems to be a huge competition for different feods.

11. Nothing weird about Liberty Square inauguration. After all, it was liberated from Ter Petrosyan (enemy of the nation) wasn’t it ? :))))))
    After being called Theatre Square , now it can be called Liberty Square again.
    Well it is very obvious that the government is sending a clear message to the 500-600 core supporters of Levon. You have no place in Armenia after what you did on March 1st. And step by step, sometimes the hard way, other times using milder methods it’s driving them either outside of Armenia, into jails or simply into obscurity.
    Sad process, but I agree wholeheartedly.This cancer should be removed once and for all.
    Mathisking, I don’t think anyone’s scared anymore . This has turned into the elephant vs. the ant.And by the time coalition government under Tigran Sargsyan starts working, this sad chapter of Armenian will be forgotten, and we will never see Levon in the public eye again.

12. Hayrenaser –
    I think at this point your completely unfounded citation of 500-600 core Levon supporters may actually be about how many of his supporters are in prison now, completely illegally at that.
    What’s happening now and has been happening is no longer about whether someone supports or doesn’t LTP, its about a movement which took shape in Armenia, which was dealt with through violence – the violence of a government against its own people.
    What few in the Diaspora seem to understand is that it doesn’t matter if I or you or anyone else support LTP at this point- if you don’t oppose those who have attempted to crush the spirits and rights of so many tens if not hundreds of thousands of people, then you do not support the People of Armenia.
    I didn’t realize that the site upon which tens of thousands of Armenians have gathered to dance, sing, unite, share bread, and stand up for what they believe in could only become a place of liberty through violence and oppression – interesting interpretation you have there.
    What if seven individuals at one of your political gatherings were killed? You would be horrified. And what if the shooter was Armenian – you would be mortified.

13. Tzitzernak,
    Let’s increase the number to a thousand. maximum. Not more than that.
    This “movement” you talk about was all about Levon. He and you as a Levon supporter, had this brilliant idea of talking in the name of the “people”. But Levon doesn’t represent the people. The thugs who were brainwashed by Levon and ruined Yerevan and attacked the police and security forces, were risking death.They should just be thankful that not more of them were shot. The police and the army have every right to use any methods possible to control a brainwashed,drunk mob which was a threat to the statehood. I am proud of the police force. They did their best. And I would not be horrified or mortified : There were NUMEROUS political gatherings in Armenia during the election period. No one got killed or injured, because all of them were legal. But AFTER the election period the theatrical brainwash sessions organized by enemy number 1 Levon Ter Petrosyan were ILLEGAL. period. And I don’t care if 10, 100, or thousand were killed (as long as thy weren’t innocents or police officers or army personnel).
    I support the statehood, stability of Armenia. I understand perfectly well your mantra of “this is not about LTP”. This has been the cover up statement all along. But it’s not working anymore. You my also want to know that there is a huge anti-Levon movement emerging in Armenia and Diaspora, who are realizing ,what would have happened if these rallies were not dispersed in time

14. And what if you were the one that pushed them to easy-to-predict confrontation with months of hate and vile and racist invective? You’d be Levon, the 1st president of Armenia, a then-discredited, now-meglomaniacal embarrassment to Armenia, with the responsibility of that day on your hands.

15. Demonizing Levon,isolating him and just getting rid of this anti-Armenian movement should be the first priority of the government, alongside the political battle against Azerbaijan and in some cases Turkey. Personally I don’t see much difference between these three dangers to Armenia.
    And if we have gotten to the point where this “movement” is getting limited to the “Sksel a” members, then this is good progress for the police. From my point of view they should use any means in their arsenal to get rid of these sold souls. It’s kind of like getting rid of Azeris or Turks if they had occupied part of the country. This is a liberation war against Levon and his parasites.

16. Hayrenaser
    You are a typical faschist or Nazzi, I am sure you are a dashnak ( nazional Socialist )who has not lived in Armenia (tourism is not living) a single day.
    By the way Young Turks wanted to get rid of the “Armenian gyavour parasits”, Hitler wanted to clean the world of the “Jewish parasits”, and so on.
    If you were given the power you would turn the streets of Yerevan into shooting arenas.
    Dear Ditord all due respect but I think it is time to block this lunatic. Freedom of speach is something but letting such faschists loose is something else.

17. haikN,
    The bitterness of a loser can cause psychological problems.I am proud that I voted for Vahan Hovhannisyan. I am proud that our government eradicated Levon with excessive force.
    You are a weak scumbag with no future in Armenia.

18. Hayrenaser, trying to put the conversation back:
    What do you think why there is an issue of Manvel and nothing about this:
    http://www.hetq.am/arm/court/7842/ ?
    What kind of a future you are predicting?

19. Hayrenaser – HaikN is right. You’re a lunatic! I am a Sksela member myself. And I’ve always been anti-Levon. And I am a Dashnaktsutyun supporter. Having this context in mind, let’s clarify something:
    a) I beleive, that statehood only makes sense, as long as it serves its citizens. I beleive, that Armenia should be a democratic – socialist country, which serves its citizens first. At the moment Armenian statehood serves a limited number of oligarchs.
    b) While I accept, that police had the right to disperse demonstrators in front of the French Embassy (I was among them), I thing dispersal of the tent-camp from the liberty square was a gross mistake. Moreover, I think, that the methods used for both dispersals were totally unacceptable.
    c) I beleive, that stability of a country with a market economy can only be acheived only if you have real democracy. Armenia doesn’t have a market economy – it has feudal economy at this point, but it is trying to present a ‘market economy’ face to the world in order to encourage investment-cash flows. However, if we let it go on like this, there will soon be a huge economic collapse, and it will start with a major real-estate crash, because I see a bubble forming in this area, and it will soon explode. When that happens, the only institutions able to help will be the IMF and World Bank with their structural loans – and if the authorities continue their anti-democratic policies, the mentioned foundations might decide to withdraw their support. What are we going to do then? You’ll be sitting in your nice-comfortable America, and let us suffer the consequencies?
    Hayrenaser – I won’t block your comments, it is against my policy – but the more you talk, the less I understand your motives for protecting the authorities of Armenia with such zeal. Tell me -what is it exactly you are supporting?

20. […] The extract above is from this Hetq article. At the moment there is lots of speculation about punishment for Manvel Grigoryan, for supporting Levon Ter-Petrossian. This will definately be a politically motivated development, […]

21. Mathisking – good idea 🙂 I just wrote a post following your tip.

22. mathisking, Seyran Saroyan went over to Levon’s side. Maybe he didn’t do enough for Levon which is why Hetq are gunning for him now. On the other hand, perhaps the fact that he supported Levon wasn’t enough to stop Hetq from covering the news which is how it should be. But anyway, the premise that Manvel was touched because he supported Levon and Saroyan hasn’t been is not true. In fact, both supported him which is why none of us believed in Ter-Petrossian “democracy” just as we don’t believe in Sargsyan’s.

23. Mathisking,
    On a previous post I was one of the first ones who alerted about the half-ape Seyran Saroyan. I find him and Manvel absolutely disgusting. Serge’s first step is to strip these men of all powers they have in the City of Etchmiadsin

24. hayrenaser, do serj sargsyan and robert kocharyan have a place in Armenia? What is the exact difference between them and Levon? There were way too many people on the streets on March 1st and you know that. It doesn’t matter how many of them were hard core Levon supporters. The fact is many people were out protesting against the current government.
    The events of Macrh 1 and the ones leading to it have far more complex roots than just Levon phenomena and the current government will only lose if they won’t try to penetrate into the roots of this conflict. It looks as if they chose a rather defensive approach based on the philosophy that “we are very good people and you are very bad people”. One really shameful instance of this is that Smbat Gogyan, someone a friend of mine knows from our math olympiada years, was fired from Yerevan State University for supporting Levon. He is a mathematician. There are many stories like these, and the stories illustrate how defensive Serj guys have become. If they continue in the same spirit they will only deepen the roots of the hatred directed towards them.
    It seems what Armenia needs is a leader like Martin Luther King, but there is no one like him at the moment.

25. Observer,
    This is your blog and you can do whatever pleases you, obviously. You can also call me anything you’d like,including lunatic, but remember that I myself haven’t called you anything in the past, so what you’re doing is uncalled for. Besides, on this forum I have called names only to people that have done the same. Only fair right?
    But to answer your questions
    1)Just the mere presence of statehood already means that the country is serving its citizens. Now the fact that the machine , in this case the political system is not workng perfectly , we all know that. Your wish of Armenia as a democratic/socialist country is also great. But that cannot be established fast for one reason. The people themselves are not ready for it. Most, when they find out what it really means,escape from it. The word democracy is used as if its a piece of diamond,but do the majority in Armenia agree with all its aspects? And whoever says they’re ready simply wants to subsitute one oligarchy with another one like Levon. In the 10 years of Kocharian, the justice system, the governance system, and the Constitution, and generally the laws of the country have been developed and have reached a new high standard.That was virtually non-existent in kor Levon’s times. What remains to be done is to implement them, and make everyone equal. Do the 3 million citizens of Armenia want that?As soon as possible? I don’t think so.
    The oligarchs: You can also say that the U.S. ecnomy serves billionaires ,some of whose names we don’t even know. Is everything they do legal? No. It’s just the civilized version of it (after all the U.S. has existed centuries longer than Armenia). Except, because Armenia is so small, everything out in the open. No secrecy , no discretion. The frustration is obvious.But, to simply say that starting April 9, you have to pay all your taxes, you can’t hide anything because you’re Dodi,Lfik,Nemec or Krzo. Will that happen? Perhaps gradually.It has been happening:Armenia’s budget wouldn’t have risen so much, without it.
    2)The cleansing and the liberation of Liberty Square from Levon’s thugs was justified in every way. For me there is no difference between the external (Azeri) and the internal (Levonakan) enemies.Both are endangering the statehood. Police did its best under the conditions. You see the videos and seeing the hatred of the crowd you’d say it’s a miracle a 1000 didn’t die. Kudos to the police and the army which averted the coup d’etat attempt and acted reasonably.
    3) What’s real democracy .What decides real democracy.And who told you real democracy is the best.And the countries you have in mind which have real democracy, do they have mortal enemies on their right and left? Are they in a truce situation when the war is still going on officially?Are they in a blockade?Show me one country under these conditions which has your “real democracy” or dares to have it.
    Russia with all its vast resources and super-power status doesn’t have it.
    About the future of Armenia’s economy ,you have your own opinions and that’s fine,Eduard Aghajanov also has his own opinions,he has been predicting doomsday for years now. I don’t listen to such crap.
    And by the way.I don’t live in comfortable America. I work in different parts of the world, part of the year,to support my family in Armenia. I have no government connections, no relatives in important jobs. But I don’t want to see Armenia destroyed by Levon.
    About Sksela:Like other organizations and individuals it showed its real face. During this coup d’etat attempt masks were torn down.And all the Levon parasites came out in the open but they failed . Now they are easy to identify. Sksela is a Levonakan organization.You might be a member but that doesn’t change the fact that your support to this group is serving Levon’s interests.

26. Grigor,
    Support for Levon in 2008 is tantamount to support to Azerbaijan and Aliyev. Mathematician or philosopher,we don’t want traitors in our midst. Not when mortal enemies surround us.

27. hayrenaser, calm down. Your tone towards levon is really strange. He is just a politician, like most in Armenia at the moment. The logic you apply to single him out doesn’t seem to be sound.
    First of all there is no such thing as people are not ready for it. There are few who dictate what people are ready for and if they don’t want people to be ready then people won’t be ready. Are you claiming that people in Armenia aren’t ready for a society in which when a thug runs over a 13 year old boy then thug gets maximum punishment? There hasn’t been a single civilization out there in the world that wasn’t ready for a society that doesn’t tolerate criminals. When criminal behavior of such an enormous magnitude goes unpunished you get what you got on March 1st. Another example is how they handled the case of Buzand street. They could apply better tactics to persuade the people to leave but they applied the most brutal tactics. If they choose to apply more civilized rules then people would be ready for more a civilized society. If they continue the uncivilized rules then people will react in an uncivilized way, the way they did on March 1st.
    Secondly, you have to be more accurate about history. Firs of all Levon, a thug or not, played an important role in the formation of Armenian Republic and most of us have no right to call him such names. He was a bad president, a terrible one, but when a poor guy gets the presidency it is hard to know what to expect. Moreover, there was the war and during the war even the best politicians make many bad choices. During Kocharyan years we had no war and moreover, Russia got on the road of becoming a superpower. So they increased their ties with Russia. So overall more good things happened during Kocharyan years then Levon years but this doesn’t mean that one is a better politician or a human being then the other.
    Thirdly, observer is right to be angry at you because of you choices of words. The liberation of Liberty Square. Common.
    Lastly, you are probably right in asking what is real democracy and what country has that. I don’t think what America has is an ideal democracy, as some people think of it, but for instance you could see high profile people in this country getting arrested for their wrongdoings. So I guess that should be a minimum requirement. Cry for democracy usual means solid human rights defense and equal opportunity, both of which do exist in America, probably not in the ideal form but they exist. Democracy, at least American one, doesn’t mean no corruption in the government circles, but human rights and happy and healthy society is in the core of American life. It is important to understand that any society is ready for solid human rights, you just have to want people to have rights in which case they will all embrace it. But if you consistently make your economic choices in such a way that violates human rights then you will have a chaotic society, one that looks like something that is not ready for anything civilized. It is not also true that poor economies cannot have solid human rights. Of course they can, it is just that it is not part of human nature to support human rights when one is hungry for money and power.

28. hayrenaser, again calm down. Supporting levon isn’t tantamount to anything you described. Supporting Levon is tantamount to being not satisfied with the current government and not having a better choice. Those who were theoretically better were also much quitter, and hence were unattractive to an ordinary person. It is really strange that you can use that kind of language when you talk about your people, and you are called hayrenaser. Ordinary people make predictable choices as their wishes are well known, and dirty politicians exploit this phenomena, just like Levon did. But Levon phenomena could end up being a positive one for Armenia, it all depends how Serj will react to this.

29. Grigor,
    I stay by my words. The liberation of Liberty Square occured on March 1st. It is too bad a couple of innocent bystanders and a police officer died. This was the liberation from organizers whose best interest was the destruction of Armenia.

30. Several points i’d like to share with you:
    1.Onnik: “Seyran Saroyan went over to Levon’s side”- it doest look like that. According to hetq, he was in Moscow with top army officials, which means he is with SS. No doubt SS will do some public executions, and Manvel is going to be among them, and i am sure that Manvel took LTP’s side, because he knows that he is going to be out when SS will come to power anyway. LTP from another side was looking to be backed by at least some army people, to make sure that army will not fire to people. Knowing that relations of LTP and Manvel was very bad, it was strange to see that merger. I have no doubt that LTP knows what is Manvel. I think same relates to Janghiryan.
    2. Manvel or Seyran is no worse that Nemetz Rubo or Toxmaxi Mher, Muk or some other people form a long list of SS core supporters. So what is going to happen is restructure of feods, but never real structural changes, which are promised by SS.
    3. Hayrenaser: I had a chance to meet several times with Sksela team, and to me it is a great example what a proper multi-opinion society should be. All their projects was great. When everybody was silently watching what was happening to the old city, or human rights, or whatever, they were the only voice. There were no LTP at that time. So name them pro-LTP is at least demonstration of ignorance. And if LTP have supporters like Sksela great for him.
    4. Hayrenaser: Supporting LTP does not equal supporting Aliev. In LTP time Karabagh was part of the negotiation process and was able to voice their opinion. Now they are voiceless. So who is playing Aliev game here?
    5. Most cited word on march1 was “Azatutyun”, not “Levon”. This talks for itself.
    6. Hayrenaser: Do you think elections was proper? If they are proper, are there any chance for LTP to gather rallies?
    7. To me we were more independent at LTP time than now, when every strategic or not object is under Russia.
    8. It is possible to survive being democratic country surrounded by enemies. Taiwan may be an example. Diversified investments portfolio always help to protect country and have a competitive economy.
    9. Ditord, thanks a lot for posting the story 🙂
    10. “Hayots Ashkhar” editorializes that Armenia’s ruling elite has so far excelled only in oppressing opponents and using government positions for personal gain. “One can force the business elite to share [their wealth] with the society and meet its basic demands only at the gunpoint,” says the paper. “In essence, the state is supposed to limit personal and factional interests and play the role of such a ‘gun.’” But it is not performing that role because political and economic interests are becoming increasingly intertwined in Armenia. “Without pressure, the national elite will not change for the better,” continues the paper. Such pressure, it says, can only result from “serious external and internal threats” that are present at the moment. (I’ve copied it from azatutyun.am). Looks like SS got card blanche to cleanup oligarkhs to the ones they look for.

31. Several points i’d like to share with you:
    1.Onnik: “Seyran Saroyan went over to Levon’s side”- it doest look like that. According to hetq, he was in Moscow with top army officials, which means he is with SS. No doubt SS will do some public executions, and Manvel is going to be among them, and i am sure that Manvel took LTP’s side, because he knows that he is going to be out when SS will come to power anyway. LTP from another side was looking to be backed by at least some army people, to make sure that army will not fire to people. Knowing that relations of LTP and Manvel was very bad, it was strange to see that merger. I have no doubt that LTP knows what is Manvel. I think same relates to Janghiryan.
    2. Manvel or Seyran is no worse that Nemetz Rubo or Toxmaxi Mher, Muk or some other people form a long list of SS core supporters. So what is going to happen is restructure of feods, but never real structural changes, which are promised by SS.
    3. Hayrenaser: I had a chance to meet several times with Sksela team, and to me it is a great example what a proper multi-opinion society should be. All their projects was great. When everybody was silently watching what was happening to the old city, or human rights, or whatever, they were the only voice. There were no LTP at that time. So name them pro-LTP is at least demonstration of ignorance. And if LTP have supporters like Sksela great for him.
    4. Hayrenaser: Supporting LTP does not equal supporting Aliev. In LTP time Karabagh was part of the negotiation process and was able to voice their opinion. Now they are voiceless. So who is playing Aliev game here?
    5. Most cited word on march1 was “Azatutyun”, not “Levon”. This talks for itself.
    6. Hayrenaser: Do you think elections was proper? If they are proper, are there any chance for LTP to gather rallies?
    7. To me we were more independent at LTP time than now, when every strategic or not object is under Russia.
    8. It is possible to survive being democratic country surrounded by enemies. Taiwan may be an example. Diversified investments portfolio always help to protect country and have a competitive economy.
    9. Observer, thanks a lot for posting the story 🙂
    10. “Hayots Ashkhar” editorializes that Armenia’s ruling elite has so far excelled only in oppressing opponents and using government positions for personal gain. “One can force the business elite to share [their wealth] with the society and meet its basic demands only at the gunpoint,” says the paper. “In essence, the state is supposed to limit personal and factional interests and play the role of such a ‘gun.’” But it is not performing that role because political and economic interests are becoming increasingly intertwined in Armenia. “Without pressure, the national elite will not change for the better,” continues the paper. Such pressure, it says, can only result from “serious external and internal threats” that are present at the moment. (I’ve copied it from azatutyun.am). Looks like SS is trying to get card blanche to cleanup oligarkhs to the ones they look for.

32. Mathisking,
    Under the mask of this organization,that organization, “democracy” , “army generals joining us”, “diplomats joining us” , Levon wanted to make the coup d’etat succeed. One of his tools was “Sksela”.
    Now you telling me that this organization i multi-opinion is kind of like saying Levon’s protesters were peaceful, or the police burnt the cars themselves or or or just part of the endless lies by Levon’s team since September 21.
    Sksela is on the black list of the Armenian government and it will stay there. From now on it will simply considered an organization endangering the stability of Armenia.
    Supporting LTP does equal supporting the enemy since March 1st. No other politician in Armenia’s history caused the destruction of Yerevan. You can say many things about all the other politicians (corruption and other shortcomings) but no one caused the riots, the deaths, the looting that criminal Levon. So if Aliyev is the external enemy , Levon is the internal one. H1 is doing a great job at convincing the population in Armenia and Diaspora that this is so.
    I think the elections were the second best in Armenia’s history (after 1991). Even though I did not vote for Serge, I agree that he definitely won on the vote count. What methods did he use, that’s another question, let’s not go there, because then we have to discuss the demonic methods LTP used in this and previous 1996 election.
    So all in all things are progressing very well. On April 9th , the inauguration on the same place where Levon’s coup d’etat was buried once and for all.

33. And now this!
    http://armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/03/1C5222F5-2803-402E-8BFF-90D169F4EE1D.ASP
    Amazingly enough this was exactly one of my questions to Serge Sargsyan on his blog. Is there any way to get rid of, Haykakan Zhamanak, Zhamanak Yerevan , Chorrord Ishxanutyun and A1Plus? It would be too arrogant of me to think I put the thought in his mind?
    I am very happy though, this is happening. The gradual alienation of Levon and his mafia from Armenian society is priority number one. In the New Armenia we shall not tolerate trators and press which spreads pure lies amongst us!

34. I guess this will be the next tactic of the government:
    Hit them where it hurts most: Their pockets.
    A la Western democracy.

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