The world is filled with comment and analysis about the Georgian-Russian war and while the active military actions have ceased, the information war is going on full speed. The Guardian has been my main source of information throughout the past 5-6 days of armed conflict in Georgia, along with the Russian version of the BBC, which was a great deal more balanced than its English language version. At any rate, this analysis by BBC’s Paul Reynolds has captured the essence and reality of the Georgia conflict in short and simple formulations, which are hard to disagree with. Observe the following balance sheet:
| Winners | Losers |
| 1. Russia 2. Prime Minister Vladimir Putin 3. The South Ossetians 4. Old Europe |
1. The dead and wounded and the refugees, of course 2. President Saakashvili of Georgia 3. The truth 4. The West |
The calculation of winning points and losses is still on and looking at how effective the western propaganda means like BBC and CNN are at disseminating cleverly designed half-truths, Saakashvili might just be able to turn this defeat into a victory.
Meanwhile, Armenia kept an uneasy silence throughout the clash of its two vital partners – Georgia, the main trade route to the world and Russia, the actual owner of this country (Armenian gas, electricity, communications infrastructure, railways are all controlled by Russian companies, Russian army guards Armenia’s border with Turkey).
There were a couple of vague and failed attempts to provoke and involve Armenia into the conflict in Georgia. The first of such attempts was the claim that the Russian warplanes bombing the military airfield near Tbilisi had actually taken off from the Russian airbase situated in Gyumri, Northern Armenia. Following refutations from Armenia, Georgian and Russian sources, the news died down, but the damage was done and Russian bases in Armenia were seen as a potential threat. Armenia was once again depicted as the Russian fore-post in the Caucasus – not that it needed proving or any further publicity. A second false rumor concerned the Armenians in Georgia’s Javakheti region – a nationalist Russian website claimed, that Georgia is planning ethnic cleansing in this mostly Armenian populated area, and that Armenians are gathering into armed groups to defend themselves. And although Armenia successfully avoided any involvement into the Georgia-Russia conflict, there are already sings, that the developments have left great impact on us. Making the assumption, that independence and physical safety of citizens are the key assets of a nation, here are some points for us to consider:
- We are hanging out with the strongest guy on our block – Russia showed the world who is the boss in the South Caucasus. Sadly though, the big guy has a nasty character – any attempts to demonstrate independence will result in severe punishment. There goes our independence…
- There was strong militaristic sentiment in Azerbaijan on the first day of the conflict, when Georgia attacked South Ossetia. Many in Baku were suggesting Azerbaijan should act by force, just like Georgia and attack Nagorno-Karabakh – a seemingly similar breakaway region of Azerbaijan. Following Russia’s violent response, calls for war toned down in Azerbaijan. However, looking at things more realistically, we will see that South Ossetia has nothing to do with Nagorno-Karabakh. There are no Russian peacekeepers standing on the border and Azerbaijan’s Ilham Aliyev has so far been much more balanced in its attitude towards the West and Russia, than his Georgian counterpart, so Russia has no reason to ‘punish’ Azerbaijan if it attacks Armenia, even though Armenia is part of the Collective Security Treaty Organization and Azerbaijan isn’t. With the Georgian invasion Russia has proved all it needs to the West already, so it will have nothing to gain and everything to loose by defending Armenia against Azerbaijan. There goes the physical safety…
…and especially for those who believe in ‘collective security treaties’ and century long friendship of Armenians and Russians, my response will be short – LOL!
I am not so quick to determine the winners and the losers of the conflict. Georgia may have lost a battle but it may win the war.
nearly every problem Armenia has is because of russia. they DID provoke the turks through the dasnaks, then were nowhere to be found to protect as promised. armenians were slaughtered.
the russians are the reason armenia was able to peacefully become independent. when ltp got to big, russia is the reason a choban like RK became the leader. armenia gave russia its entire infrastruture, natural resources and security and the people were able to have a few crumbs and some modest economic growth.
armenia now has SS, and russia has also given armenia back ltp so SS doesn’t get ahead of himself. russia is the reason behind karabagh war and behind karabagh stalemate.
if armenia would ever put forth a new, honest leader, russia would sabatoge it (of course through greedy, willing Armenians).
what has always been good for russia is instability. meanwhile, the victims fight over non-issues and kill each other off.
Actually at this point Armenia has a great chance to join the winners circle. It is very probable now that Russia will unilaterally accept independence of Abkhasia and Ossetia. It will obviously seek a few friends to do the same, in order to give it an international flavor. Armenia certainly is one of the friends, which will be asked to join in. Now if our Karabaxci, Russian ass kissing Armenian leaders demonstrate all their slyness and accept independence of Kharabakh and achieve that Russia does the same, I will probably forgive them the humiliating position they have put us in. But if they just seat back and wait, naively enjoying the beating of Saakashvili, then their failure as leaders, patriots, and Armenians will be complete and irreversible.
So please, LTP bashing anonymous commentators, Serj lovers and servants, home grown foreign affairs experts, get the word to him, ask him to do something more than betting in casino, beg him to become real President and National hero. This is the moment. Such moments are rare. Armenian leaders filed to presudae Stalin to invade Turkey at the end of WWII, could not persuade Gorbachev to solve the Kharabakhi problem on paper, before the hostilities star. This is one time opportunity. Kosovo started it, Abxasia and Ossetia next in line. However similar or different are these conflicts, this is a window of opportunity, when West and East are trading borders.
GT
Serjik probably also has a better chance to win but in a casino in Macao.
This is a valid concern. The Russian noose around the neck is getting tighter. If there was hope that it might get looser as time went by with the appearance of an alternative like the US or the EU in the region, now we know that any such attempt will be quashed with force.
Bush keeps making noises over here and Putvedev keeps ignoring them. The m ass media here devoted disproportionately large amount of coverage to the issue and it has become clear how important they deemed the Western presence in the area.
The West screwed up big time but they still have a chance to come up ahead in this. Bush hasn’t shone in diplomatic skills so I am not holding my breath for this.
Come Armenians buck up one thing we know for sure is that its not the end of the world and if it was i dont think it would matter much now would it.
Armenia is actually a winner in the short run karabagh is now clearly ours even befor this azerbaijan would never think of attacking armenia but now if completlly forgot about it.
if things stay the same it is a loser of course dirty russian will not favor a better a stronger armenia in the future this is why armenia has to be a “kiss ass” on both sides it must still work with nato and be russians closest ally. it is kind of doing that now but it must lean a little more to the west in the coming years turkey relation must change and they are. Once this happen the U.S. will be a closer ally to armenia. But armenia has to be evenly divided betwwen US and Russia 50/50 til russia makes a mistake and it will russians manage to always fall into trapes its because they always overrate themselves putin is way over his head at the moment the US is going to take russian apart piece by piece and georgia and ukrain will join nato. Russia had to get its economy more diversyfied befor attempting such a move. The whole country is depending on profits of oil. Once the United states starts drilling it own reserves and starts to accelarte its alternitive fuel technology oil prices will plummit this is already happening.
In my accounting Serj still hasnt made a mistake as a president and Tigran sarkisyan and nalbanyan are even more impressive by the day. Armenian really got lucky with these two.
Armenians shouldnt feel bad about dealing with such difficult issues we are a small people with a very small counrty we have to be resourcful and limit our mistakes. There is nothing wrong with kissing the ass of russia or the US to get our objectives Completed. If it makes you feel better you can call “kissing ass”diplomicy.
petrosyan = Raging homsexuual
petrosyan supporter = in denial
hi
i’m an armenian from lebanon but i think if the armenians in georgia would at least begion to use aks against the georgian military i think it weould be a lot better for the armenian goals.yes armenia can’t do anything bcs something small can trigure war against azerbaijan and turkey if not nato also bcs tghe armenians first thing is destroy the pipe line and the railway and not forget kill all georgian…..but if only armenians in georgia reacts it would’ve now been like abkhazia an other free terotory with own president wich after few years would’ve might automatically been part of armenia if not all the way to the sea……….wich could atract arfmenians in aqrabic contrys to come back to armenia before they turn into arabs in few generationssss by marring them or else wich there are a lot of armenians taking arab girls or boy wich their sons are being anti armenians or part of the party name ouwet or kataeb or many others and anyway we lebanese armenians know what war is……we did some for the last 30 years………..and georgians are just like the maronit arabs the just talks like theire something against armenians but in time of reaction of fire they just flee bcs their cowards deep down……………peace and tigran if armenia be 50/50 half usa and half russia it would in the end be with no advanced or spetial weaponary like now and spetialy it will surely be always fear of civil war in armenia just like in lebanon half of lebanon want’s usa and the other half want iran wich works with russia and if spetially armenia works with usa don’t forget new enemies on top of old enemeys for exemple there will be also fear of conflict against iran so armenia with russia it’s the best
Let us not forget that the reason the oil pipline from Azarbeijan does not go through Armenia, and instead goes north around the Armenian border, into Georgia, and then back south, around the Armenian border again, and into Turkey, is because the Armenians refused to give up Karabkh. That was punishement for not giving up Karabakh. In short because Armenia decided to hold on to Karabagh it was further alienated from the West, and forced to get closer to the Russians. Russia needs friends now more then ever before, and Armenia could capitalize on that by recognizing the independence, or anexation of Abkhazia, and South Ossetia, in exchange for Russia’s recognition of Karabakh independence or annexation, wich would be a point of no return away from the West. Things will get a lot hotter, and this will be a warm war, not a hot one, and not a cold one. The Russians cannot be dicounted yet as a regional power, they are a permanent member of the Security Council at the UN, and will now be a lot less cooperative with the US on many issues to include Iran and North Korea. If the Russians play their cards right they will find plenty of clients to want to be their friends. This was also a pay back for Kosovo by the Russians. Armenia is wedged between a rock and a hard place, hold on to karabakh and anger the west, give karabakh up and join the west. It will take some real political genious to appease everyone and get what Armenia needs for herself.
Mel – that is the rhetoric, but I am not sure it is the reality. I am not convinced that if we bought this hook, line, and sinker, and gave up Karabakh that we would get the oil pipeline going through Armenia anyway. It is obviously much more than about a small piece of our land.
Well in my opinion Armenia should give up Karabakh. I understand that this not an easy step to be made, but I think that Armenia loses enormously more than it gains from Karabakh stuff. Even if Karabakh is officially recognized as an independent state, the tension will still continue and Armenia will be still left out from all regional projects. We live in Caucasus, where offenses are not forgotten so easily.
What does Armenia gain from owning Karabakh? I guess nothing special. Only the pride that Armenians managed to revenge over “Turks” (as you call them), otherwise Karabakh did not bring access to the sea that you dream about. It did not stimulate your economy. Even contrary, you became fully dependent on Russia and are in desperate need of having Russia a serious force in the region. Otherwise Azeris will take a chance to get Karabakh back and without Russian support I doubt that outcome of the war will be favorable for Armenia taking into consideration population and wealth of these two countries.
Well to illustrate what Armenia lost and won from Karabakh issue see this image:
http://earticle.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/bakutbilisikars1.jpg
“Giving up Karabakh” is one of these fictitious concepts that Turks/Azeris and others who have promoted a state policy to eliminate Armenia from the map have created.
What kind of a comment/question is this: “What does Armenia gain from owning Karabakh? I guess nothing special.”
To those cynical enough to measure historical land, culture, heritage (not to mention the lives of the human beings living there) ask yourselves what are you going to gain “giving it away” (whatever that means). As if you should be even asked to give away someone else’s house…
You know if we give up Yerevan we might get two or maybe three pipelines through Armenia
Karabagh is not a bargaining chip. It’s a land where Armenians live and if they weren’t protected they would be slathered by Turk.
Get your heads out of you asses
What kind of foreign policy is that: let’s give up land. Besides the obvious stupidities of this plan, do you think Armenia is this gigantic country that we can just give up land to solve our problems. Instead of thinking a way to keep karabagh lets give it up another problem solves. My friends there are a spot for you in a future fictitious petrosyan administration. You will be the head of the Surrender Department but i warn you, your going to be very busy.
WOW, YOU GUYS ARE UNBELIVABLE!
All right, then sit and wait until oil price falls, Russia fails and Turks and Azeris revenge… I doubt that they will like the explanation that they came here later then you did and that’s why you took the land by force…
Until that live in siege and spend money on weapon instead of improving infrastructure…
Tigran, are you the same guy who thinks we should confront Russia. If yes, can you please also explain how on the earth do you think we should keep it by confronting Russia?
I am against giving up anything. It is just sounds strange. But it would be nice if there were studies illustrating possible economical gains from giving up Karabach. I suspect that at the end, we will actually not gain anything. But such studies are needed so that those who think there are enormous gains can be convinced otherwise. Morality of course has no place in those discussions. You cannot argue with someone who thinks we should give up Karabach by basing your argument on morality. The person already doesn’t think much about morality, so the argument is pretty much empty from that person’s point of view.
To Grigor:
I doubt that it is possible to prepare such a study due to complexity of the issue. You may be right, even if Armenia gives up Karabakh now, it may not change anything from economic point of view.
I think that current situation is risky for Armenia. Armenia simply does not have enough resources to compete with Azerbaijan that redoubtably is a regional leader for the moment. Armenia faces real threat…
so if we cant just give up karabagh we should just sit and wait til its taken over. Well I guess thats better than just giving it up.
But here an idea how about we WORK! Armenia has to move more to the west to leave a door open for the united states it has to make up with turkey while leaving the genocide issue open and scores a few more alliances (exploration is needed) with other countries in europe. When Russia fails turkey wouldnt attack armenia if there is a common intrest like money. Even if it did If Armenia playes its cards right the United States will not allow it.
Here is another thing for those of you not paying attention Azebaijan is handcuffed with the armenia issue they cannot attack armenia becouse of their pipeline armenia will take it over! this is one of the main reasons they dont attack. as the pipleline enters georgia it is about 30 miles away from the armenian boarder. They can never give up a huge bagaining chip like that to armenia. Sometimes i almost wish they attacked!
Grigor , I have never said that Armenia need to confront the Soviets i said the US does for the sake of a Armenia cause i do belive that when Armenia does become a productive country russia will try to undercut armenia.
Russia cannot be trusted Whether they are a stratigic partner, enemy or just a friend they have betrayed everybody. They will betray us as well maybe not now but eventually.
Yet antoher thing MEL, when has russia cooperated with the us on iran of north korea they handed over the nukes to these guy. Russia is a filthy slut who will do anythink for a little money betray, had over the safety of its friend and even its own safety. What if one they russia and the iranian start a war iran will nuke russia with it own nukes. As i said russians dont have forward thinking they only think today. Russia will now loss everything if they continue to press gorgia the us will just pour more money into it and russia will just waist its tresure will it gets all kinds of restrictions against it self internationally until its back to 1991. If it could just pour oil in to barrels and sell it I guess they coudnt handle that they had to play rough with the big boys.
We didnt take the land because we were their first we took the land becouse azeris started to buther armenians on the strrets of sugait and karabagh.
Oh how soon we forget!
Its not a moral issue to protect you nationals its a survival issue
[…] and while the active military actions have ceased, the information war is going on full speed. Thehttp://ditord.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/georgia-russia-war-buries-hopes-for-armenias-independence/CNN to expand US news, adding reporters in 10 cities to make its coverage broader, more nimble […]
Then maybe we should learn from successful models in Asia minor, and encourage Armenians from every where to immigrate to Karapakh. and establish settelments, as well as re-enforce the existing population of Armenians there. Until Armenians can speak with one voice it does not matter whether we appease Russia or the West. Karapakh should not be a negotiating point, only if every Armenian would have the courage of Monte.
Yes, if many move to Karabach and live there it will be hard to take it away from us. But this is really a dream. Most Armenians want to leave the country, and for the right reasons.
But Tigran, I am just curious. Where did you get this idea of betrayal? Which historical event is in your mind when you speak of Russian betrayal? I am mean there are many decisions they made that look like betrayals. Like when they didn’t get into Poland when Poles had an uprising against the Nazis. Or when they backed off from Turkey when there was the revolution in Russia. But you know these are not examples of betrayal. They are more like strategic decisions that any country makes. The same way Brits gave up on us for instance during early 1900s. They gave us weapons and made us stronger but then took a sharp turn and gave up on us. That was an important moment in our history. Had they backed up us and put an army in Armenia we would never be in the Soviet Union. It is amazing actually that they didn’t. They won WWI and they were pretty much the owners of the world at that time. So you know, it feels like you got the whole thing wrong. Countries brake their words, and US will too as soon as they feel Georgia is too much for them. And they will back of leaving people in devastation.
The really sad part of all of this is that not a single American or Russian feels like that America or Russia is playing a dirty game in Georgia. They both think the way imperialists think, they are saving the world from salvages and evil.
Well grigor i can list historical event wher i feel russia betrayed us like when they handed over nachijevan to azerbaijan and when they handed karabagh over to them as well when during the end of the soviet union gorbachov failed to act again atrocities against armenian in azerbaijan. or even just giving turks our land and ararat for no praticular reason (where was the stratagy in that). oh i guess you mentioned that last one. i can do this but your right these could be considered stratigic decision.
But the russians are suppose to be our friends they are suppose to be loyal to us like we are loyal to them. If something will hurt our country they are suppose to reconsided That is friendship but they dont, this is a one way relationship and we are always on the wrong end .
I say just like russia can make a stratigic decisions against us why cant we do the same against them like leaning towards the west a little. I think armenia should play hard to get cause russia has taken our loyalty for granted and im tired of it.
I dont neccecarly think that i got the whole thing wrong its just my opinion.
i dont think your opinion is wrong its just a diffrent way of looking at things thats why were here to exchange opinions.
and here is another one what is so sad about being an imperialist. Iam proud to say that iam a pure imperialist i want armenians to increase their population i mean i want are boarders to burst with armenian. I want to conquer more land and make more money and i want this now. i THink everything after Tigran the great in our history is sad.
What the romans did for democracy armenians did for establishing christianity but where is the respect il tell you where it is no where to be found just like armenia on the map.
I think Armenians cant afford to not think like IMPERIALISTS
Usually, I do NOT respond to articles anywhere, BUT this time I have to say that this article is the BEST, WELL written piece explaining where Armenians fall in the worlds eyes. It troubles me when I see and hear Armenians talk about how “free” and “democratic” their country is. My friends, it is NOT! The actions taken last week by Russia clearly(Putin/Medvedev/Lavrov/Churkin) clearly demonstrate that Russia clearly runs Armenia and for any Armenian to deny this is worse than denying its own holocaust, the Armenian Genocide! Armenia is Russia and Russia is Armenia. Enough said!
Whether you like or hate Georgia, regardless of the consequences, you have to admire the “will” of the Georgian Government and her people for at least striving to be free. For those who “knock” the USA and what it stands for, as someone who lives in South America, I would choose the USA ANYDAY over Russia! Russian Imperialism is WORSE than any “NEO-CON” platform so eagerly pushed on the “East”, and that includes Armenia!
Remember Armenia = Russia and DON’T FORGET it or theose 7000+ Russian troops in Armenia will make sure that YOU do understand…….just like the “freedom” seeking people of Georgia, a Georgia who didn’t get ANY support her neighbor except to say, Armenia didn’t allow Russian jets bomb Georgian territory.
Sad day for freedom sake and more importantly the “West” as Lady Liberty weeps for those who have NO future in Armenia and quite frankly, Armenians know this and can do little to change it because they had their chance……and they chose to align themselves with the KGB, I mean, FSB and Putin!
Sierra Nevada:
I don’t understand your last line: The Armenians had their chance, but chose to align themselves with Russia and the KGB and FSB and Putin…
uh, when did they have a chance? Armenia and which army was going to say, OK we’d prefer to not be in your sphere of influence, take care, Moscow.
I think all of this discussion about choice to be free or not is a bit glib. Armenia is a small and weak country with neighbors who have proved time and time again that they are ready to depopulate Armenian land of Armenians. While I am all for independence, it is also not a video game where you can just restart if you lose everything.
I also disagree with the premise that there was a real window of opportunity where Armenia could have broken off all strategic relations with Russia and just go it alone (or even go it as a western surrogate like Georgia). Actually, I think the trade-off there would be tantamount to just attaching Armenia to Turkey. And if so, then you can really just kiss Armenia’s real future goodbye and move it to hypothetical discussions on blogs and the like.
I of course agree with AH.
In fact, I would add that Armenia did everything it could to stay as independent from Russia as possible. But you cannot really do that against a country like Russia especially when all you have is your location on the map. It was really a choice we made. But of course, I don’t remember ever that people were asked to make a choice. It was more like our government chose it and it was probably the right decision anyway. It was probably a forced decision as well. We will see how it works out for us in 50-60 years time.
Where is all these negative image of Russia coming from? What is better to be ruled by Putin, a weird human, or by Wall Mart, a corporation that sells poisoned products to its customers? Well both are probably equally bad, but common move your buts a bit and drink a glass of cold tan before you make your choice.
sorry it should be come on in the last line. Spell checker.
AH,
Thank you for your response. I think you answered your own question. I’ll restate it here:
AH wrote:
“I also disagree with the premise that there was a real window of opportunity where Armenia could have broken off all strategic relations with Russia(or even go it as Western surrogate like Georgia)”
Answer: With the “Fall of the Iron Curtain” Armenia, like Georgia, had a chance to decide to be free and democratic(remember democracy isn’t built in 1 year) or remain a “stooge” of Putin. Armenia chose the latter.
Armenians should BE happy because now they know beyond a shawdow of a doubt, that Russia will turn those 7,000+ Russians troops(actually Strategic Intelligence estimated 43,000 Russian troops, advisors, and speciial forces on “soveriegn land) on your soil into the “force” the Putin used in Georgia to bring Georgia to her knees, to fight Armenians “Internal” Conflicts. Russia has tried for several years to economically bring Georgia to her knees and now Putin has resorted to INVASION as a means to turn public opinion against Saakashvili with the hopes of installing his own puppet, so the same criticism that the “West”(lets face facts – the “West” is the USA and NOT the USA & EU) has a stooge in Saakashvili, let NO Armenian or Ruissian ever state that this is NOT the case! If its good for the goose, its good for the gander!
Grigor,
YOU have GOT to be serious!
Your quote:
“What is better to be ruled by Putin or by Wal-mart”?
YOU can equate communism/socialism to walking into a store and buying products that you may actually enjoy?
Did you ever hear the famous saying in New Hampshire, “Live Free or Die”, you would choose to be RULED by Putin and the KGB(FSB) than shop at Wal-Mart?
I am curious…….may I ask several questions of Armenians……
I live in a part of California where there are THOUSANDS, if NOT more of Armenians. I think that they are GREAT people, but whenever I hear them speak, they ALWAYS criticze and speak badly of America and her politics….while the speak HIGHLY of Russia and how PROUD they are of Putin. My question, why NOT emigrate to Russia?
I CAN’T believe that a HUMAN BEING would actually say that they would prefer to live under Putin than SHOP at Wal_Mart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SierraNevada25
P.S. Grigor asked, “Where is all these negative image of Russia coming from?………………Have you ever read the history of Russia and the Soviet Union? Again, UNBELIEVEABLE!
Yes I of course red the history of Soviet Union. I lived there and I think it was horrible for many reasons and wasn’t such a horrible place for many other. I hope you will spend a bit more time on thinking the analogy between Putin and Wall Mart. I am not saying I want to be ruled by Putin, but certainly I prefer him over Bush though not over Obama which yet remains to be seen what that actually is.
First of all, for your information in the past ten years all the products that I bought in America I actually didn’t enjoy. They are very badly made. If you are American it will be hard for me to explain what I mean. Most of the products I owe come from Europe, Asia (products made for Asian people not American) or from Armenia. In fact, I hardly go to stores in America because I find most of them disgusting places. For groceries I mainly shop from Russian-Armenia stores buying mainly stuff made in Armenia and for vegetables and etc I shop from local farmers. That’s on shopping in America. I don’t want to be poisoned, sorry.
Second, in my opinion most Americans don’t know why America is the best place to live. When asked they give nonsense answers that make no sense to me. Freedom is an illusion that most Americans think they have. Public opinion is pretty much controlled by media and corporations. I don’t know what you mean by live free or die. I don’t want to die and I don’t know what it means to live free, and the worst of all is that people who talk about living free have no idea what that is either. I just want to live the way life should be lived, first and formost without wars and for the rest read some Saroyan and you will understand.
Now, why do people immigrate to America. This is a question that Americans never, and I really mean, never will be able to understand. First of all, Americans don’t want everyone. They want the best. For instance, if you are poor they will never let you immigrate. They want the ones that are educated, are from well to do families and etc. The reason for this is simply that it is extremely expansive to produce an 18 year old person who has received a quality education. They basically steal these people, the product of other country’s investments and bring them to USA for free. Most Americans think of immigration as if they are helping poor countries while it is really the other way around. Immigration is good for American economy while it is in some sense bad for other country’s economy. Just go to NYC and you will witness it first hand. Of course, you will never agree.
Now, why do people actually want to come to America and why is America the best place to live. It is not because there is freedom that we didn’t have back home or that there is democracy that we didn’t have back home, or that there are cars that we didn’t have back home, or that there are clean roads that we didn’t have back home, or there are movies that we didn’t have back home, or that there are human rights that we didn’t have back home or all those myths that you were told by your president.
The reason that America is the best place to be is simply that Americans are the only ones in the world that realized that the best way to let the economy grow is by letting people choose their own stars. This way both the rich and the poor have a way of becoming richer. This is the only place where there is no pressure on you to be what you don’t want to be and not because of the illusions but simply because those who used to control people’s lives have realized that they can make much more if they let people choose their stars. As a consequence people in America are the happiest ones in the world but they are also number one consumers of garbage, like $10 watch that doesn’t work. Happy people buy garbage.
The dilemma for me is whether what happens in America is actually better in some sense of the word. But it feels to me that if there is hope for a “better” life then the very first step is the step that Americans took. Therefore, I think it is worth trying to fight for improvements in America.
The reason I wrote such a long response is because I just wish that the people who sell America to countries like Armenia sell it the way it is not through empty words like freedom, democracy or what have you. But this probably will never happen.
grigor what are these reasons that the soviet union wasnt such a horrible place.
and if you prefer putin to bush you can move to russia. I will galdly pay for your tickets and help you pack. i can easily make such comment becouse i know for a fact you wont go.
Grigor your statments are hypocritical
you say most of the products you buy are not made for americans yet you bouth them in america. i ask you do you think the makers sent them to america just for you. you also say you dont buy american but you purchase your vegtables from local farms.
I think you buy american without noticing it. sort of like perfering bush over putin and not noticing it.
you also say that american are blissful idiots that have no freedoms yet you stat that the only reason people come to america is because they have the freedom to choose what to do without any presure from anyone else.
Just becouse you dont understand what your freedoms are dont pretend you dont have them
No one needs to sell america. you and everyone else in the world has already bouth america You and people like you pretend that they hate america but its just pretend. Even arabs secretlly wish they lived in america. And so do your great russians who would tell you putin is god but are willing to marry a american citizen to move to america (buya russianwife.com)
Tell me what has putin done that you belive is so great. The only reason russia has any sort of capital is becouse of $140 a barral oil before that and after that they have nothing so why would you choose putin over any leader of the world. Tell me specifically what has he done. I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER THIS!
You have simply fooled yourself into thinking putin and russia are better than bush and america. but you should stop there dont try to fool others becouse you will end up looking like a fool yourself.
Sierra Neveda you tend to over siplify things it isnt just a case of selecting whether to be a friend of the US or russia for armenia in the beganing and still to this day armenia has intrests that dont entirely agree with the intrests of the US but do with Russia like karabagh. To be with the US you have to be in Nato and to be in Nato for Armenia means giving up karabagh so its not possible but not being in nato means being allied with the russia so thats what armenia did not by a choice.
i belive that the current possition for armenia is ideal it tries to play in the middle russia can not be totally avoided. If Armenian tells russia to get out of its business russia will totally abandon armenia and i higly douth that the US will protect Armenia from its ally Turkey’s vast army and azerbaijan. So As you see it is not a clear choice.
But Armenia is now playing the waiting game Russia will make a mistake if it already hasnt started to and armenia should have its connection already established to the west like turkey and Europe and the US. then it can make the trasition smootly like georgia should have.
i think sierra nevada that we both agree that what georgia did wasnt really good for its prospects in the future and armenia’s way is probably smarter.
About some Armenians being proud of putin. i dont understand this phenomenon either i think its cold war propaganda still lingering in the mind of some armenians and they still cant bring themselves to say and belive in the reality that the United State is a far better country and a far better society that russia was and will ever be it the future.
what a strange choice of words. Proud of Putin, anyway.
Lets believe that America is the best place to be because only in America you can buy poisoned chicken and a nice drug called Viox that is specifically designed to kill you without any major complications, but DONT FORGET TO ASK YOUR DOCTOR if you actually need Viox because there are alternative drugs that will kill you just as easily. Ura. Kece american, american ashxarhi amena lav banne. Caxikner bolorin ev ekeq ajspes erjanik nstenq mer taxtin u spacenq te erb Vioxy mez kspani.
As an Azeri i think i sould give my point of view in thisarmenia website
1)if Azerbaijan attacks Armenia russia won’r be big problem what is in armenia it’s old ak 74 and some broken T-55 it won’r be a prblem to our tank divison consisting of Turkish Otokar Tanks and about 200 T-82 so the war wil be finished in 3 weeks and i think Azerbaijan will be th winner as russia has no way to help armenia but the problem is Iran which will help armenia better than russia iraninas want from nadir shahs time to slaughter all azeris so they’ll do it and USA with some copule of Yankies won’t stop them so i don’t think we coud ever start the war and second in Azerbaijan 90% of people want war evrybody from Devout muslims to Wahhabi Avars
so it’s not news for me of people wanting to start the war again
anyway i agree with ace as we know armenians were in high post ranks in ottoman o times and turks and armenians lived peacifully but as russia started “big game” they wanted to gain more lands from tukey so they provoked armenians against tuks and thus started all problems so for me personally My First ENEMy is Russians Political games but if war starts in N/k i will join Azerbajan army and we’ll take back our lands no matter who helps armenia.(don’t like my words yes n/k is part of azerbaijan and it’s not yur land yur land is somewhere in kars go and get it back )
I know i shouldnt do this but what the hell
Orphan i have a question for you if karabagh
isnt our land how come we control it
your words dont matter your actions matters
I will guerantee you one thing Orphan there will never be another karabagh war. its over there will never be a point in history where azerbaijan can control karabagh. this is an impossiblity. Azerbaijan can not risk their pipline therefor they will never start a war. the day you star a war is the day we take over your pipleine in agstafa it is also widlly know that armenian armed froces are defense based Azerbaijan has to priovide the military power that is at least 4 times its current capasity to achive any sort of victory your figures are pie in the sky at best you probably got them from wikipedia
do some REAL research
This is what will happen
Azerbaijan will never recognize karabagh while armenia eventually will. Your goverment will pretend to be totally outraged and will blame this targedy on the internationl community and turkey. I think you and your enemy the russian will become alot closer because of this.
Karabagh will be the next cyprus.
Tigran,
I wonder if you really mean these stories about attacking the Azeri pipeline? Do you really think anybody will allow that? Don’t you think that the Azeris thought of that? Do you really think that the Turks will allow that? Please don’t behave childishly by giving statements about succesfully attacking the Turks and taking over their country: that simply won’t happen. This is not some videogame but the cold hard reality. Russia wouldn’r dare dreaming something as it is a sure recipe for disaster and a war which cannot be won.
Instead of all this militaristic nonsense which is not achievable be realistic and think about Real-politik. Time is running out for Armenia and every year that passes Azerbeycan gains political and military strength. After August 7th the game has changed for Azerbeycan and Armenia as Putin has come out and showed that Russia does not care about anything else but Russian interests and is becoming a severe risk and liability for the Caucasus. The Turks will not permit an increase of the Russian influencesphere in the Caucasus (on the contrary) so it is in the best interest of Armenia, Azerbeycan and of course Turkey itself that this issue is resolved. If you really believe that the Turks are weak and do not have the necessary strength and power to dominate the region you are severely mistaken. It would be best for Armenia to make use of the policychange of Turkey that has been implemented since 2002. This policychange is defined as zeroproblems with the neighbours. This Karabag issue can be resolved and Armenia can benfit in a huge way of this together with the whole region. It would be best for Armenia to join the Caucasus stability pact which was proposed by Turkey and is accepted by Azerbeycan, Georgia, Armenia and even Russia (although Russian acceptance was no doubt insincere).
I never said armenia will attack turkey. please read my statment again
what i said was If azerbaijan attacks armenia, armenia will directly attack the pipline this is an absolute. and yes i do belive that azebaijan has though of this. Which is why they will never attack. This was the whole bases of my argument. I also think that turkey will get involved if armenia takes over more land from azerbaijan but if turkey gets involved than so will russia. Yet another reason azerbaijan will not attack. Turkey doesnt want azerbaijan to attack turkey wants as you said peace and armenia doesnt want to attack either we also want peace. But this leaves azerbaijan with a problem of losing karabagh.
Time is not on the side of azerbaijan as i said azerbaijan has alot to do to become dominate in the region. Buying a few tank and figther planes does not mean anything in karabagh. organized army
Karabagh’s terain is very difficult to conquer it will take alot to push armenian or any other even azeri forces out of possition in karabagh its just a matter of defense its difficult to mount an offense with all of the moutains and forests.